A question for drummers on this board.

[Keregioz]

I'm working on a song these days and while programming the drums I came up with this pattern:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/316805/drmptrn01.mp3

The question is if it's physically possible to be played by a drummer. Specifically I'm wondering about the hihat (the open/closed variation) since I'm not sure how it works in reality.

 

[GeertSamuel]

Thought this would be some kind of hyperblast open close hihat stuff... ..
But this is actually pretty easy to do..

Hi-hat open close is just like a bass drum pedal, put your foot on it and it closes, lift it and it opens.
So if you think of it logicly. Most drummers can't do 1 foot blast. Some can. I can go up to 205/210 with the 1 foot blast, and still have some independence left so I can handle my hihat. But as soon as I go up, I need to move my left foot (normally located on the hihat) to my 2nd bass drum pedal so then it has become impossible to perform the open close patterns on the hihat...

Hope you sort of understand that...

 

[Felix Neumann]

Kimon, that´s absolutely no problem to play. But holy shit..this sounds really good. What programm did you use to reach this natural and dynamic sounding?

 

[Keregioz]

Kimon, that´s absolutely no problem to play. But holy shit..this sounds really good. What programm did you use to reach this natural and dynamic sounding?

Thanks both for your answers. Felix, it's superior drummer 2.

 

[drew_drummer]

Easy enough to play I reckon.

 

[Felix Neumann]

Thanks both for your answers. Felix, it's superior drummer 2.

Thanks, Kimon.

Wow..it seems like real drummers aren´t needed anymore nowadays for studio. The drummer in me is sad, the AE in me is pleased

 

[smy1]

Haha, Felix, I thought real drummers weren't needed anymore since Lars overdubbed everything on "... And Justice For All"

But yea, I love Superior 2! I actually have to blend in samples on kick and snare to make it sound less real

 

[Felix Neumann]

Haha yeah, I remember there was a time, it was easily possible to recognize a artificial drumsound. Today it´s much more difficult to recognize it (Of course, if it´s properly edited). That is good! But the natural emotional aspect is getting lost ( I love records like Powerslave or Death´s ITP, what has awesome drum performance imo) although the overall sound seems to be dusty a bit in comparison with the records of today.

At least, Lars Ulrich played whole sequences on AJFA, I think?

 

[Skinny Viking]

At least, Lars Ulrich played whole sequences on AJFA, I think?

Essentially he would play literally section by section ... even the verses were split in 1/2. Raz wanted the little guy hitting the drums super super hard all the time and only way they could do it without killing Lars was to have him only play through to a fill ... stop for a few minutes ... resume

 

[beyond dead]

At least, Lars Ulrich played whole sequences on AJFA, I think?

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec05/articles/tobywright.htm

this was posted on the main page a couple days ago.

 

[Raptor7]

Hi
Keregioz, indeed sounds good but it will be more human if you do the following:
you have to think like a human drummer. That means limited and fluid. Fluid not means automatic or mechanic. Fluid is ups and downs, randomly breaks, etc.. Plus, a human drummer uses both hands for that hihat pattern in order to sound fluid. He can do it with only the left hand but it will sound more stiff and in many cases not evenly hit. That's why, first of all, the hihat pattern must be hit with both hands, alternatively, and usually the right hand gets the accented beat. Ok, if you think and do it like that it will lead you to the main problem I hear in your sample. It's not quite correct in a 1/16 bar to have a Cymbal hit then the next 16th note to be hihat. Usually most of the drummers bypass the next 1/16 hihat stroke right after a Cymbal was stroked with the same hand he uses for strokeing the hihat again. I don't know if I was coherent here.
Of course it can be done but as I said, most of the human drummers play like that.

I can go further into drum programming, maybe it will help you somehow. When programming a break, a fill, always keep in mind two things: 90% of them hit harder with the right hand and some begin their fill by hitting hard at the beginning then medium in the middle then finishing hard again or some start the fill soft/medium and by the end hey increas the power of stroking. Also, use random velocity hits for the left hand more than for the right hand. There's more about that regarding the hitting place, body position, etc.
Cheers.

 

[Keregioz]

Hi
Keregioz, indeed sounds good but it will be more human if you do the following:
you have to think like a human drummer. That means limited and fluid. Fluid not means automatic or mechanic. Fluid is ups and downs, randomly breaks, etc.. Plus, a human drummer uses both hands for that hihat pattern in order to sound fluid. He can do it with only the left hand but it will sound more stiff and in many cases not evenly hit. That's why, first of all, the hihat pattern must be hit with both hands, alternatively, and usually the right hand gets the accented beat. Ok, if you think and do it like that it will lead you to the main problem I hear in your sample. It's not quite correct in a 1/16 bar to have a Cymbal hit then the next 16th note to be hihat. Usually most of the drummers bypass the next 1/16 hihat stroke right after a Cymbal was stroked with the same hand he uses for strokeing the hihat again. I don't know if I was coherent here.
Of course it can be done but as I said, most of the human drummers play like that.

I can go further into drum programming, maybe it will help you somehow. When programming a break, a fill, always keep in mind two things: 90% of them hit harder with the right hand and some begin their fill by hitting hard at the beginning then medium in the middle then finishing hard again or some start the fill soft/medium and by the end hey increas the power of stroking. Also, use random velocity hits for the left hand more than for the right hand. There's more about that regarding the hitting place, body position, etc.
Cheers.

Thanks, that was helpful man, I'll keep it in mind.

 

[professorlamp]

Are we finally ready for a drum programming tutorial? Raptor7 you seem to know your stuff and I think this tutorial has been in the works for a long time

 

[AudioPhile777]

The drummer in me is sad, the AE in me is pleased

Hey hey hey... keep your personal life to yourself... lol.

 

[kramer1309]

yea, a full fledged indepth drum programming tutorial would be great..

 

[PhilR]

yea, a full fledged indepth drum programming tutorial would be great..

True but it would essentially be a "how to play drums" tutorial, as in: Somewhat more complex than you think.

I programmed drums for years before I started to play (I only took up actual drumming when I was 27) but I didn't really gain any true knowledge of what I was doing until I started observing actual drummers. Learning what each cymbal and drum was called, seeing how they laid out their kits, how the most common patterns were played. It's a lot easier now, I didn't have Youtube back when I started.

 

[kramer1309]

True but it would essentially be a "how to play drums" tutorial, as in: Somewhat more complex than you think.

I programmed drums for years before I started to play (I only took up actual drumming when I was 27) but I didn't really gain any true knowledge of what I was doing until I started observing actual drummers. Learning what each cymbal and drum was called, seeing how they laid out their kits, how the most common patterns were played. It's a lot easier now, I didn't have Youtube back when I started.

Complex? No problem, bring it on!

Seriously, it'd help loads. Right now I'm just writing down tabs in guitar pro, importing them to a midi editor and randomizing some velocities in groups (hihats, all toms, kicks, snare). It's a lot better than nothing but I'm sure it can be taken to the next level..

 

[Raptor7]

Complex? No problem, bring it on!

Seriously, it'd help loads. Right now I'm just writing down tabs in guitar pro, importing them to a midi editor and randomizing some velocities in groups (hihats, all toms, kicks, snare). It's a lot better than nothing but I'm sure it can be taken to the next level..

Man, careful what you wish for
Trust PhilR's opinion, start by watching drummers, observe there patterns, observe every hit, analize, guess, try. Other than that its pure human behaviour psychology.

 

[PhilR]

I'll try and put together a rough primer as I've got some time....

Okay, first principles:

A drummer only has 2 hands and 2 feet. So things like carrying a cymbal rhythm over a tom fill are generally impossible. Remember that in order to play a roll the player must first stop hitting the cymbals.

Basic rock backbeats in 4/4 time are almost always played with the drummer "riding" on a given cymbal with the right hand on the main beat. This can be hihat, ride cymbal or a given crash or china. It's common for drummers to cross their right hand over the left to play the hihats but the reverse almost never occurs. So keep a picture of the kit alignment in mind at all times. On a 1-2 1-2 1-2 roll the player will almost always lead with the right hand and progress left to right around the kit.

So, in order to construct a basic backbeat, you will have the right hand playing a cymbal on the 1-2-3-4, with the kick on 1/3, and the snare on 2/4.

HH|x---x---x---x---
KD|x-------x-------
SN|----x-------x---

If using the right hand to play a cymbal on the right hand of the kit, the left hand will frequently be used to punctuate the start of the bar on a crash on the left hand side of the kit:

LC|x---------------x---------------
RC|x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---
KD|x-------x-------x-------x-------
SN|----x-------x-------x-------x---

And so on and so forth, with many variations on this theme. Others will no doubt expand on things I've left out. Most of this is pretty basic stuff that most people would figure out (assuming you have a sense of rhythm, not everyone does )

A few other things, the hihat is operated by the foot so open/closed hihat patterns don't mix with constant double-kick patterns. It IS possible to play a closed hand sound over double kick but in the real world this requires a device called a drop clutch, which simply releases the top hat so they remain closed until the player uses his foot on the hihat. Either that or he simply leaves the hats constantly closed.

 

[kramer1309]

Thanks for that! can't wait for the rest (who all ever posts)...
cheers..