Acoustic Drums for Metal: A Guide
- Thread starter Glenn Fricker
- Start date
dreamcatcher
Raising the Knife
yeah, the point there is that if the spaced pair are too close to each other then too much of the Left side cymbals will be in the Right side mic, and Vise Versa, leading to comb-filtering/phase cancellation issues. as long as the 3:1 principle is adhered to then that type of bleed is reduced by at leat 6 - 9 db, which is enough for natural masking to eliminate the potential phase issues.
it's really simple ...xy doesn't have the problem becuase the capsules are together, but xy doesn't sound as wide as spaced pairs.
also, Oz likes to have a lot of snare in his OH's but i don't really because i like to be able to change the OH levels without totally affecting the snare sound for one thing, among many.
it's really simple ...xy doesn't have the problem becuase the capsules are together, but xy doesn't sound as wide as spaced pairs.
also, Oz likes to have a lot of snare in his OH's but i don't really because i like to be able to change the OH levels without totally affecting the snare sound for one thing, among many.
~BURNY~
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James, I have a few questions regarding the 3:1 rule with oh. :Spin:
Are the phase issues such a big deal when affecting a stereo field?
3:1 rule increase seperation and mono compatibility and reduce the snare bleed which is cool, especially for metal.
But aren't spaced pair supposed to benefit from slight phase differences. From what I learnt, it should increase sense of space and localisation. Am I correct? I mean, this is the whole priciple behind ORTF technique which is basically a small spaced couple. The comb filtering should happen only If there's no panning. Or Am I missing something?
Does the AB 3:1 ("Murphy's pair "if you don't mind
) affect the mid toms and centered cymbals the same way it does for the snare? Is there some kind of hole in the center?
What sources are you considering when placing the mics and calculating the distances? Cymbals, toms, snare?
Voilà, forgive my curiosity , I'm not able to test the Murphy's pair by myself at the moment, I'll do as soon as I can. And more important, I'm not questioning the validity of this technique, I just like to feel like I understood the whole process.
To be honest, I'm quite impressed by Oznimbus examples...
Are the phase issues such a big deal when affecting a stereo field?
3:1 rule increase seperation and mono compatibility and reduce the snare bleed which is cool, especially for metal.
But aren't spaced pair supposed to benefit from slight phase differences. From what I learnt, it should increase sense of space and localisation. Am I correct? I mean, this is the whole priciple behind ORTF technique which is basically a small spaced couple. The comb filtering should happen only If there's no panning. Or Am I missing something?
Does the AB 3:1 ("Murphy's pair "if you don't mind
) affect the mid toms and centered cymbals the same way it does for the snare? Is there some kind of hole in the center?What sources are you considering when placing the mics and calculating the distances? Cymbals, toms, snare?
Voilà, forgive my curiosity
, I'm not able to test the Murphy's pair by myself at the moment, I'll do as soon as I can. And more important, I'm not questioning the validity of this technique, I just like to feel like I understood the whole process.To be honest, I'm quite impressed by Oznimbus examples...
I know that a lot of people do the spaced pairs, aiming to get the snare in the center of the image, but what about the close mic'd spaced pair technique..? Say each mic about a foot, maybe a foot and a half off a pair of cymbals? (I think James mentioned that's how he does it normally, but I may have misread or misunderstood it.) In this case, the majority of the sound you're going for will be cymbals, not neccessarily creating the image of the kit. I use this method because most of the time I wind up replacing drum sounds, because I record a bunch of bad drummers with bad drums. That way I get less kit in the overheads, more control over cymbals and I can rely on the sound of the samples to fill in the gaps.
I think the results I get using this method soudn great, but is it a generally well accepted method of seting up OH's?
I think the results I get using this method soudn great, but is it a generally well accepted method of seting up OH's?
James Murphy said:
Chalk that up to my listening to British Steel about a billion times during my adolescence.
I love the drum sound on that record.
GeertSamuel
Member
Took time to read the whole thread.
Deffinately picked up some stuff..
I will be trying that 3:1 rule tonight...deff!!
Can't wait...
Deffinately picked up some stuff
..I will be trying that 3:1 rule tonight...deff!!
Can't wait...
I have a mobile recording setup and I was wondering the following issue recording the snare w/ 2 mics:
I don't have a phase-invert button on my preamp. So should I solder a phase-inverted XLR-cable for the bottom mic, or should I just go with a normal cable and reverse the phase in DAW?
Is it a "general starting point" to record the bottom snare mic w/ inverted phase?
Discuss pros & cons, please.
rgds,
Tuomas
I don't have a phase-invert button on my preamp. So should I solder a phase-inverted XLR-cable for the bottom mic, or should I just go with a normal cable and reverse the phase in DAW?
Is it a "general starting point" to record the bottom snare mic w/ inverted phase?
Discuss pros & cons, please.
rgds,
Tuomas
That would be because Les Binks was on the kit for that record... that guy was just plain awesome. He was, by far, the best pre-Travis drummer Priest ever had.~BURNY~ said:
I love the sound of Hell Bent..... don't get me wrong. But there's something special about the drum sound on British Steel that gets me every time.... It might have something to do with the fact that they were recroded in Ringo Starr's foyer!
lol, well i faaar from created the technique... Andy's even mentioned more than once that he likes the spaced pair over xy. i do use xy, usually for jazz, blues, some rock stuff. just generally don't like it for metal where sooo much is crammed upo the middle anyway, not to mention the L&R where there often 4 rhythms stacked and panned. i'm usually only about one and a half to 2 feet at the most from the cymbals, and generally i tilt the mics toward the cymbal groups, placing the mics to where the null points in their cardioid patterns are rejecting as much snare as possible.~BURNY~ said:James, I have a few questions regarding the 3:1 rule with oh. :Spin:
Are the phase issues such a big deal when affecting a stereo field?
3:1 rule increase seperation and mono compatibility and reduce the snare bleed which is cool, especially for metal.
But aren't spaced pair supposed to benefit from slight phase differences. From what I learnt, it should increase sense of space and localisation. Am I correct? I mean, this is the whole priciple behind ORTF technique which is basically a small spaced couple. The comb filtering should happen only If there's no panning. Or Am I missing something?
Does the AB 3:1 ("Murphy's pair "if you don't mind
What sources are you considering when placing the mics and calculating the distances? Cymbals, toms, snare?
Voilà, forgive my curiosity
To be honest, I'm quite impressed by Oznimbus examples...
Nebulous
Daniel
do you know what a pick-up pattern is? here's one, a standard cardioid pick-up pattern:
the red line ass shaped figure on this graph is the pick-up pattern. the "ass crack" is the null point, where sound is most rejected.... so basically, aim cardioud mics away from things you want them to pick up the least. such as your snare mic... position it on the snare so that the hats are directly behind it, at the snare mic's null point.
the red line ass shaped figure on this graph is the pick-up pattern. the "ass crack" is the null point, where sound is most rejected.... so basically, aim cardioud mics away from things you want them to pick up the least. such as your snare mic... position it on the snare so that the hats are directly behind it, at the snare mic's null point.
to the contrary, the 3:1 principle is directly associated with spaced pairs and othe multi-mic techniques.~BURNY~ said:
i'm a bit weirded out quite a number of people here dont' know anything about the 3 : 1 rule....
it's one of the most essential /most important and also one of the easier concepts to grasp and have, learnt it the 1st day in sound class.
it's one of the most essential /most important and also one of the easier concepts to grasp and have, learnt it the 1st day in sound class.
~BURNY~
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A Toolish Circle said:
Is this comment aimed at me?
I know this principle(or only a part maybe) for quite some time. What sounded new to me is the fact that it is used with a stereo pair.
Until now, I thought 3:1= prevent two sources from comb filtering which supposedly happen when the two sources are placed in the same part of the stereo field/same channel (singer playing guitar, duet... Stuff like that).
I think phase difference between two separate channels (L-R) can be a part of the stereo imaging (suitable or not ).
Now, maybe I miss something but I don't consider this to be a stupid question.
In fact I never heard someone saying that you need to use the 3:1 rule when using a stereo spaced pair, so I will keep considering this as an option, a very interesting option indeed.
LynchpiN
Don't like presets.
~BURNY~ said:
I put this method to the test today, observing the 3:1 rule, and WOW! Niiiiice.
Beautiful stereo field, excellent positional information. The toms just roll across the field, fn' beautiful.
I did a few tests for height, as well. Lower & closer vs Higher more spread (using 3:1). I'm kinda digging the higher & more spread sound... it's picking up a bit more of the room & some air on the snare & toms.
Overall, I'm one happy engineer. I'll be using this on my next project for sure.
James Murphy said:
That, and keep a cattle prod handy for drummers who can't stop hitting the damn thing too hard.
