affirmative action
- Thread starter Mikael is God
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Lina
kickass elizabethan style
i think we should have affirmative action based on income, not race.
the reasoning behind AA is that minorities are by definition poor, which is the most racist thing i've ever heard. i live in an area with TONS of rich black people -- when i say rich, i mean $600,000 homes. yet, at the high school i went to, at least, it was the children of these black families that won all the minority scholarships. the whole point of the scholarships was completely wasted on them because they'd had just as many opportunities, if not more, than the white kids, and they could already afford college.
now, obviously, i realize this doesn't represent the normal demographics of the US, but that doesn't matter in what i'm arguing. if you give money and advantages to people who are poor, regardless of their color, you achieve what was intended -- for everyone to be on equal footing, to decrease the income gap.
unfortunately, i think when we had this debate before, the conversation was limited to the usual "it's backwards racism blah blah blah" arguments. which is true, but doesn't address how to solve what is a serious problem in this country.
the reasoning behind AA is that minorities are by definition poor, which is the most racist thing i've ever heard. i live in an area with TONS of rich black people -- when i say rich, i mean $600,000 homes. yet, at the high school i went to, at least, it was the children of these black families that won all the minority scholarships. the whole point of the scholarships was completely wasted on them because they'd had just as many opportunities, if not more, than the white kids, and they could already afford college.
now, obviously, i realize this doesn't represent the normal demographics of the US, but that doesn't matter in what i'm arguing. if you give money and advantages to people who are poor, regardless of their color, you achieve what was intended -- for everyone to be on equal footing, to decrease the income gap.
unfortunately, i think when we had this debate before, the conversation was limited to the usual "it's backwards racism blah blah blah" arguments. which is true, but doesn't address how to solve what is a serious problem in this country.
Heliologue
neologist
affirmative action was one of those ideas that looked better on paper than it actually worked.... like communism, the el camino, or the spork.
my main problem with it is that it becomes token.... hiring based on color than on quality, just to fill a quota.
my main problem with it is that it becomes token.... hiring based on color than on quality, just to fill a quota.
Obyeybyeogone
New Metal Member
Duvall
Ia!
My feelings exactly.
The term "Affirmative Action" isn't used a lot around here, but if we're talking about minority hiring practices...I always use the example of women firefighters. People were pushing for a long time to have more female firefighters.
Now as a biological rule, Men have the potential to be physically stronger than Women. Don't flame me for this, the strongest man will always be stronger than the strongest woman. Firefighters have to endure rigorous tests to be allowed to save people's lives. Their jobs require a lot of physical strength and endurance.
The moment anyone can run up and down those steps with 100lb hoses on their shoulder, thus passing the tests, I'm fine with them saving my life. But if anyone hired as a minority performed substandardly on those tests, then I think the plan has failed. I DO NOT think we need firefighters incapable of performing their duties, and while there are MANY women who are VERY capable of doing this well, I feel that unfair hiring practices can put weaker people into the fold.
Again, don't flame for this. None of you would want someone who was hired due to their minority status, not skill, hauling your ass out of a burning building. There are many women who could kick my ass in a second, and hell, I'd bow down and submit to their power. I'm not a woman hater, though I have been insulted for voicing this opinion before.
That's just always been my stereotypical view of minority hiring practices.
*breathe*
I think if a job involves skills that can be taught in a training-like environment, then everyone should be considered, minority or otherwise. Race, sex or social status should not have bearing at all.
What I find interesting, at least in Canada, is that I rarely, if ever see male counterstaff at a fast-food restaurant. I don't know why managers consistently put females at the counter, and it's not that I object, but it's startlingly consistent.
Anyway, gonna go listen to tool.
The term "Affirmative Action" isn't used a lot around here, but if we're talking about minority hiring practices...I always use the example of women firefighters. People were pushing for a long time to have more female firefighters.
Now as a biological rule, Men have the potential to be physically stronger than Women. Don't flame me for this, the strongest man will always be stronger than the strongest woman. Firefighters have to endure rigorous tests to be allowed to save people's lives. Their jobs require a lot of physical strength and endurance.
The moment anyone can run up and down those steps with 100lb hoses on their shoulder, thus passing the tests, I'm fine with them saving my life. But if anyone hired as a minority performed substandardly on those tests, then I think the plan has failed. I DO NOT think we need firefighters incapable of performing their duties, and while there are MANY women who are VERY capable of doing this well, I feel that unfair hiring practices can put weaker people into the fold.
Again, don't flame for this. None of you would want someone who was hired due to their minority status, not skill, hauling your ass out of a burning building. There are many women who could kick my ass in a second, and hell, I'd bow down and submit to their power. I'm not a woman hater, though I have been insulted for voicing this opinion before.
That's just always been my stereotypical view of minority hiring practices.
*breathe*
I think if a job involves skills that can be taught in a training-like environment, then everyone should be considered, minority or otherwise. Race, sex or social status should not have bearing at all.
What I find interesting, at least in Canada, is that I rarely, if ever see male counterstaff at a fast-food restaurant. I don't know why managers consistently put females at the counter, and it's not that I object, but it's startlingly consistent.
Anyway, gonna go listen to tool.
Mr. Black
sixtie and six legions
i agree...minority hiring practices are fine in many jobs, however, if you're going to give preference to canditdates based on race, sex, age etc. rather than ability it should be in jobs where ppls lives are not put at risk because of it...like firefighting mention above, or the army...
i know quite a few ppl in the army, and was in the cadets and TA myself...i don't know any men in the army who say, and have never heard any senior officer quoted as saying, they want women to serve in front line rolls, and jet the government continually puts women into more and more rolls in the army...women going for army selection have much less regerious tests than the men...they're given longer to complete marches and runs, they don't have to carry as much, the women i trained with in the TA didn't even have to complete a proper press-up (they were allowed to put their knees on the ground)...if you were shot and wounded would you like to be dragged back to safety by someone who couldn't do a single effing press up? obviously there are going to be women capable off completing the standard entry requirements (they're not particulaly high), and they should be allowed to join, but you shouldn't allow ppl in who can't pass even the basic requirements just so you can say the army is now x% women...
i know quite a few ppl in the army, and was in the cadets and TA myself...i don't know any men in the army who say, and have never heard any senior officer quoted as saying, they want women to serve in front line rolls, and jet the government continually puts women into more and more rolls in the army...women going for army selection have much less regerious tests than the men...they're given longer to complete marches and runs, they don't have to carry as much, the women i trained with in the TA didn't even have to complete a proper press-up (they were allowed to put their knees on the ground)...if you were shot and wounded would you like to be dragged back to safety by someone who couldn't do a single effing press up? obviously there are going to be women capable off completing the standard entry requirements (they're not particulaly high), and they should be allowed to join, but you shouldn't allow ppl in who can't pass even the basic requirements just so you can say the army is now x% women...
luke
Messianic Subliminal Mind
I think the last time we discussed this it was brought to light that that AA was created to balance hiring practices is a common misconception. AA (appearantly) is a from of restitution for those minorities who have previously suffered at the hands of 18-45 yr. caucasian males.
While I agree with the ponts about basic physical requirements that are independent of gender or background, we should not neglect the benefits of diversifying the labour force. At least AA brings equal rights issues to the minds of the employers. Quota's on the other hand.....
While I agree with the ponts about basic physical requirements that are independent of gender or background, we should not neglect the benefits of diversifying the labour force. At least AA brings equal rights issues to the minds of the employers. Quota's on the other hand.....
HoserHellspawn
Pixel Manipulator
I find little here to argue with. Some of you (luke, anyways) have probably read my rants on Affirmative Action in past threads - I'm thouroughly against it - but, much like Lina says, I didn't have an alternative solution to offer (I simply suggested that AA was the greater evil).
Ultimately, of course, in a utopian vision, AA wouldn't need to even be a thought as people would simply hire colour/gender/relgion/whatever blind and simply pick the best suited person... for anything. However, as we're still going to have bigoted people around who will allow their prejudices to affect their professional decisionmaking, they do need to be curtailed somehow.
Ultimately, of course, in a utopian vision, AA wouldn't need to even be a thought as people would simply hire colour/gender/relgion/whatever blind and simply pick the best suited person... for anything. However, as we're still going to have bigoted people around who will allow their prejudices to affect their professional decisionmaking, they do need to be curtailed somehow.
if someone robs a bank, is then caught but let off and allowed to take the money too, will he rob another bank? im against violent action being taken, but it has to be done. soon we will all die in a war or something maybe, so in conclusion see Opeth before you do!
luke
Messianic Subliminal Mind
vocis noctis
CoF board-mod
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