After a few years of reading, I started working on a mix...

[NoDestiny]

Hello all, first post.

I'm glad I found this forum. I have been after somebody to critic my mixing abilities within the same realm of what I'm trying to do (Metal, duh! ).

I have read over and over again many, many different online guides to give me a hint on what the "correct" way to do things is. It still doesn't sound nearly as awesome as the few that I checked out on this forum, so I was hoping you guys would have some nit-picking advice to give to me.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mml2q0bmnmk/Leaf of Autumn V0.9.1.mp3

I don't have a studio or anything near that of an acoustically treated room, so I had to work with what I had. I realize its only going to sound as good as what goes into the mic, I'm just trying to make it better than it is now, if possible (I have no doubt).

Setup was:
Guitar: BC Rich Warclock (not sure what model) on Peavy (sorry, not sure... TransTube and takes cards, 2x12) amp to a 4x12 custom built cab w/ Eminence Texas heats, SM57 just off center of dustcap
Bass: Ibanez Soundgear 6 string (sadly, this is one of the few songs I don't really use all the strings, so don't expect much on this one), Mesa Boogie BB750 using post line out
Drums: Fairly generic kit w/ pretty well random heads (lol). Mics were PG52 on kick resonate head, just off center of vent hole, PG56 on kick batter head, aiming at the beaters, 2 PG81's in X patter above drummer (small room and lack of good stands, didn't have much of a choice for anything else), PG56 on top of snare head, SM57 on bottom, and SM58 on high-hat (w/ pop filter removed)
Vocals: SM58
The Rest: FP10 to my custom built PC (tri core AMD, 2GB ram, XP, etc.) to Cubase LE 4. Mixing w/ Sennheiser HD280's and various other speaker setups just to double check... only wish I had monitors... and a room treated for it.

I did a "mastered" version where I compressed, EQ'd, and limited it, but figured i'd give the mixed version.

Let me know what you guys think I can do to make this mix better. Thanx a billion!

 

[NoDestiny]

That bad?

 

[Unavailable]

The drums and bass are good for now. You need to at least double track the guitars and give it back some mids, though. Also, it sounds like the vocalist doesn't take himself seriously. There's no intensity to the vocals at all.

 

[Line666]

Well for a start theres no panning in this at all by the sounds of it, its totally mono. You need at least two guitars either side in any genre of music pretty much, that means double tracking them and panning them hard left and right (ie 100%), you should also pan your toms and overheads appropriately.

The one guitar track that is there sounds very very weak and is hardly decipherable at all - just cloudy with a fizzy high end. It doesnt sound that well miced and I know that the cheaper Peaveys arent good but you should be able to get better results. The kick lacks definition as does the snare, you need to eq a bit of high end into them at least, but they don't really sound that workable at all. The whole thing doesnt really sound tracked to a click either, which is a definate must for metal, its definately a bit in and out, timing is dodgy.

The vocals sound like someone growling into their hands, its very muffled. Nothing really sits right at all.

Your gear list looks fairly impressive and you could get some really good results with it and I dont mean to be harsh, but it does sound like you dont really know what to do with it.

 

[NoDestiny]

No offense taken at all. I know I'm a newb at this and hence, why I'm here asking you guys, with your experience and knowledge under your belt, to tell me WTF I'm doing wrong

We basically threw it together as a "scrap" piece until we get into somewhere with decent acoustic treatment.

The only thing that was panned in it was the overheads... in the X patern above the drummers head, 100 L and R.

Ill try to get another track down on the guitars for a good stereo image of it, maybe re-record the guitars completely.

The vox were done just directly into a SM58 w/ very mild EQ adjustments and some compression. What can help to eliminate the muffled sound? I do have a Rhode NT1 mic, which in the few times I played with it it was very bright in comparison, but again, no "good" room to record in.

Also, vocal intensity wise I (lol, yeah, I'm that vox guy) just learned this song and really haven't tried to do anything creative with it. I'll definitely work on it

I have a really hard time getting the drums to sound right. You mentioned the snare and kick specifically, which are the two that drive me crazy. We miced the resonant and batter heads. The res head was EQ'd w/ +5 @ 80Hz and dropped all around it by about 3db from there, where the batter was about 500hz-10K if I recall, all else cut. I'm sure there is a better way for that. (also, reverse phase on the resonant head)

The snare... well I'm not sure what the best way for that is. Obviously the OH's pick up the snare. But I also miced the bottom and top of the snare... so I have 4 tracks basically playing the snare. Reverse phase on rear of snare, too.

Thanx for the tips guys.

 

[Line666]

I think the best thing to do if you think the acoustics are shite/the quality of the drumkit is not up to par is to sample replace the kick, snare and toms. I've miced up crap drumsets in poor quality rooms, and you can get away with the overheads usually, but the main components, or the bits that most people notice in the drum sound will just sound shite, and theres only so much eq'ing, compressing and touching up you can do. Its not really realistic to expect a good quality drumsound when you're polishing a turd. To do that you'd need a program like aptrigga or drumagog and some decent quality samples (theres a lot floating about this forum if you look around).

If you're determined to keep your drum sounds 100% real though then its definately worth checking out Oz's tutorial (http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/217656-acoustic-drums-metal-guide.html)

58 should work fairly well for growly vocals but you might want to consider bussing them out to a reverb to add a bit more depth to them, hammer them pretty well with the compressor and do make them a bit more bright as well, do a sweep with the eq and use your ears to find where to give them definition, your vocal technique doesnt sound astounding however, so again its a matter of working with what you've got.

 

[NoDestiny]

Thanx for the tips. Ill see about putting them into practice next go around. Thanx again.

 

[tr3nt]

I thought it was pretty cool until the guitar came in. You should work on the tone and double track it.

 

[NoDestiny]

I thought it was pretty cool until the guitar came in. You should work on the tone and double track it.

I agree that the guitars are the weak link here. Obviously there is a lot to do to perfect the track all together, but I scheduled my guitarist to come do another throwdown this Monday. Ill post up whatever results come out of it.

Also, I experimented a little. I took the track, doubled it, gave it about ~8ms delay (not the effect, the actual time before it started playing the track) and panned L/R... in the headphones, it sounded pretty neat. But I could imagine some phase issues coming out of that pending on the note. Am I correct?

Edit: Also reading through that drum guide. Great information. I honestly would rather have real acoustic drum sounds vs. samples, so it seems to be a great guide to follow. Luckily, a few things I have been following, such as the overheads... ok well thats about the only thing hahaha.

 

[NoDestiny]

et al, what would you say needs improved on the vox, exactly?

 

[NoDestiny]

Thanx dood, good stuff. Will definitely put some practice into it. My throat never bothers me, even after long practices, but if it can be improved in quality, then why not?

 

[MetalJonesy]

that ZoS vid was a good watch mate, cheers!!

 

[Trevoire520]

Vocals sound like you cant even be assed man, put some effort in! If the energy isn't in the performance then no effect or piece of gear will put it in for you. Sounds like I wouldn't hear you in the next room with the door open! I could say the same about the drummer too tbh, get him to hit the kit like a man!

Sample replacing the kit would go a long way to improving the drum sound. If you wanna stick to the natural kit sound though then you're gonna need alot more attack on the snare and kick. Try boosting around 5khz on the snare and anywhere between 3khz-7khz on the kick (sweep it around and listen for where the click lives) Read the metal drum guide thats already been referenced and treat it like a bible.

Double track the guitars, get more mids and less gain on the amp. If you know anyone with a better guitar and/or amp than you then get a loan of it somehow.

Re-track it all to a click. Tightness=Heavyness

 

[NoDestiny]

Ill have to dig up another song that I did the vox on, ones that I wrote lyrics to are a lot easier to muster up the emotions to. Though, I do agree, I need to put SOMETHING more into it for sure.

As for the drummer, He's one of the best in the area and I'm very sure its going to be either mic placement or mixing... the snare alone can blur my vision slightly if I'm standing too close to him while he is playing lol. If anything, that snare is tough to get consistent and I find it to be the reason for most of the clipping in my mixes.

Thanx for the input for sure, though!

 

[GarethSE]

i wish the ZoS videos didnt have so much OH YEAH MAN SHE TAUGHT ME SO MUCH OMGOMGOMG MELLISA CROSS FTW N SHIT
cant they just get on with the lesson shit?

 

[Line666]

Its to hide the fact that she's not really got much to teach.

 

[GarethSE]

yeah
i think they kinda marketed the whole thing wrong
doesnt really teach you how to scream so much as teach you hot to not lose your voice, and i never had any problems before i saw her shit.

 

[NoDestiny]

Yeah, seems that there is about 10-15 minutes of actual lesson, the rest is just filler with others experience in the lessons and what not. I think the audio CD they mention for warm-ups would be more valuable from the sound of it.

Question for you guys: How do you get your guitarist to put more mid into the mix? He has the mid dumped on both the amp AND the pedal (Metal Muff) and bass/treble mostly cranked up... he keeps saying he wants that "Dimebag Darryl" sound. I fully believe in midrange myself (after building my own 15/6 bass cab, FIRM believer! The added midrange got me the exact sound I wanted with minimal EQ tweaks on the amp itself), but I don't know how to help him get the sound he wants and is happy with, while still keeping the sound alive in the tracks. Suggestions?

 

[GarethSE]

record DI tracks. monitor with an amp sim
re-amp later and if he asks for the amp settings, just give him some random scooped shit.

that, or do TWO re-amps, one really scooped, more dimebag-ish tone and one that doesnt suck total ass and give him both mixes. dont tell him which is which, just let him decide for himself. if he chooses the scooped tone he's obviously a cretin and you should disassociate yourself from him immediately.
that or just keep nagging him to put more fucking mids in his sound.

 

[NoDestiny]

What amp sim do you recommend? I have never used one before, so I'm kinda blind to the subject. Thanx dood.