Alla who?

[Satori]

First a little story, then a few questions.

In the aftermath of the world trade centre attacks, I'm seeing lots of shit on TV and hearing people talking about how Islam and the Muslim faith is actually built on peace and love and stuff. To me, these words (Muslim/Islam) bring to mind images of human oppression and cruelty and the gross abuse/mistreatment of women, but that's a whole other story.

So here's the story. My friend (John) has a Muslim friend at school, he's a cool guy, you'd never suspect he was actually a little "off". Anyway, they got to chatting, and this guy, I forget his name so let's call him JimBob, explained how his faith works, and it's fucking scary. JimBob said that the leader guy at his "church" (or whatever it's called) is considered their direct line to Alla. Alla apparently has a bit of an anger management problem and sometimes tells them that they have to kill their enemies. Ok, nothing new there. So John inquires, "If your leader told you that I was your enemy, would you kill me?" and JimBob says "Yes, I'd have no choice".

So let's get this straight. If some stupid fuck who happens to be the leader of some muslim church says to his followers "Alla says you have to kill your friends who aren't Muslim" then these followers like JimBob have no choice but to obey and go on a serial killing spree. No choice? Really? Really. JimBob says this jihad war crap is very serious shit, and no one disobeys Alla (or anyone claiming to speak on Alla's behalf). Therefore, he'd have no choice but to commit murder if told to do so. Am I the only one who finds this terrifying? If a normal canadian muslim guy cannot disobey an order to murder someone, then what hope do the helpless drones in the middle east have? I had no idea it was quite that bad. I thought the Muslims in the free world used their own conscience as a guide but apparently this is not the case according to JimBob, they do what they are told by whoever speaks to them on "behalf" of Alla, and they don't question it, they just do it. Scary, scary shit, I say.

So I have a few questions:

1) Is JimBob just a member of some fucked up fundamentalist Muslim cult? (his particular cult is huge by the way)

2) Is it true that if asked JimBob would have no choice but to murder his friend? Is there no room in the religion for personal convictions and acting according to one's own will, as opposed to just the will of the leaders?

3) If JimBob did murder John at Alla's (some guy's) request, would other Muslims regard him a the greatest thing since astroglide, or would they hate him, stone him, shit on him, etc? JimBob claims that murdering John would make him a hero in the Muslim communities throughout the world, is this really true? If it is, I'm scared and I think I have good reason to be.

I'm hoping for honest answers here people. That is all.

Satori

PS: If you have the urge to write and tell me how insulting or offensive I've been, please, save it for someone who actually cares and kindly take your fragile ego elsewhere. If you can't do that, then by all means write your heart out, just be warned that I'll probably offend you even more in my reply, being the cynical bastard that I am. If you can't take the heat, don't read the thread. It's that simple.

 

[E V I L]

I don't think any Muslim would be so naive as to obey the order's of another man. They are wary, as any rational being would be (human beings are rational, no matter what your stance on religion is), of false prophets and such. So, frankly, you need not worry about a muslim killing you because another guy commanded it.

On the other hand, some people are schizophrenic and indeed imagine that they are a) either prophets themselves, gods themselves, or are blessed and authorized by god or the holy spirit, or b) imagine that God actually visits them and bequests divine commandments that they must follow. These people are easily dismissable, and clearly pathological. Most muslims, I can assure you, are not "schizophrenic."

Otherwise, obviously, if one believes in *a* God, and this God somehow told you to kill someone else, you should and would do it. That's a logical consequence of 1) from *our* point of view, suspending reason in blind obedience 2) from *their* point of view, correcting the arrogance that would authorize and trust that same human reason, *against* God. In short, people who believe in God believe God is good and the creator and the order of the kosmos. Their lives consist in having their faiths tested and doing what they can to reaffirm their faith, and doing what they can so that they never fail in their faith ((love/obedience/belief/trust/duty) to God who is not merely good, but is Goodness itself. "In god [they] trust"

Killing others in the name of God, therefore, is tantamount to killing in the name of that which is good. It's easy to see by what reasoning killing people (who are "secular" and "ungodly," people who would spread and make the rest of the world "godless") would be perceived as a good thing in the Muslim's eyes. The logic of the religious runs thusly: those who are (actively) against our god (goodness) are evil and demonic. Why would the muslim scruple to slay the "anti-god" or hesitate to rectify the pollution (in their view) that corrupts God's creation that is the World? If he does it (bombs, kills), he does it by his own moral impetus (rather than some else's commandment).

Interestingly, the Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard dealt with this same topic, only his subject was not "jimbob" it was Abraham in the Book of Genesis, who was ordered to take his one and only son (Isaac) and sacrifice him. Kierkegaard asked as you did, by what reasoning Abraham managed the strength to obey God in that perilous hour of the Morn, and he asked what possibly justifies Abraham and cleans him from the charge of being a murderer. Interesting right?

post edit: an extremely relevant and concise website addressing your questions: the pillars of islam

 

[_Transparent_]

ok, but do you really believe its all about religion? or is it politics cunningly disguised as religion?

 

[E V I L]

Originally posted by _Transparent_
ok, but do you really believe its all about religion? or is it politics cunningly disguised as religion?

Well, in the case of usama bin laden et al, I think it's difficult to seperate the two for any number of reasons. Politics and religion are very tightly entwined. Politics and political actions are moralized, morality is an operative extension of religion, and, vice versa, politics and politcal agenda are guided by religious belief and moral principles that extend out in the principle of "jihad" which means "struggle." Politics is a part of their moral consciousness/vigilance of the world on a global level, that prompts action entailed in the "jihad."

On another level, if by 'politics' you are referring to something sociological, again it's difficult (if not absurd) to separate religion from politics, because it's difficult to distinguish between a) religion and a people, and b) people and politics. The simple truth: people work for people= a) religion= self-interest = people b) political motive= self-interest = people.

my two cents.

 

[_Transparent_]

if i ever get a (bastard) dog im gonna call it alla.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by _Transparent_
if i ever get a (bastard) dog im gonna call it alla.

Cool, we have a aquatic snail named jesus. He appeared to die for like 3 days and then miraculously came back to life. Praise da lord!

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by E V I L
I don't think any Muslim would be so naive as to obey the order's of another man. They are wary, as any rational being would be (human beings are rational, no matter what your stance on religion is), of false prophets and such. So, frankly, you need not worry about a muslim killing you because another guy commanded it.

The guy commanding it is not just "another guy", he's a muslim cult leader, considered the direct line to alla, and his orders are not so easy to disobeyed by his loyal fearful drones as you seem to be implying.

If you feel that the religion is not built on this blind obedience, then you are basically saying that "JimBob" is either full of crap or delusional. I don't think he is either. I think he's telling the truth about his particular sect/cult/whatever. Why would he lie to his friends and make himself look like a brainwashed idiot?

Also, the personal justification for commiting atrocities in the name of "god" is pretty evident to everyone already I think and requires no explanation.

I find it a little scary how the religion appears to be devised in such a way that people would instantly go completely against their own conscience if asked to. To me, that's just perverse and what I would subjectively regard as "evil".

Satori

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

human beings are rational, no matter what your stance on religion is

...Is flying a fucking plane into the side of a huge tower that has some 5000+ people in it RATIONAL??? Tell me that.

Human beings are Irrational... totally.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

...And by the way, I think you may be refering to ALLAH, not Alla...

 

[Satori]

Religion (the scary ones) is a political tool to rule the masses from the inside out by creating overwhelming amounts of fear in the faithful and then using their own fear against them to cripple their will, freedom, and personal sense of morality/ethics.

This is how religion is typically unleashed on a population by the politicians who use it to their own advantage first and foremost.

Satori

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Religion (the scary ones) is a political tool to rule the masses from the inside out by creating overwhelming amounts of fear in the faithful and then using their own fear against them to cripple their will, freedom, and personal sense of morality/ethics.

Very true, Very impressive...

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Trapped
...And by the way, I think you may be refering to ALLAH, not Alla...

I used to think that too, that is, until I started reading stuff on the web and found the Alla spelling is more common, particularly on the non-english sites. Maybe it is spelled both ways, or perhaps the authors of the sites are not the greater of spellers. I find it odd how they could misspell the name of their own god however, but I guess anything's possible.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by E V I L
If he does it (bombs, kills), he does it by his own moral impetus (rather than some else's commandment).

JimBob would disagree with you on this as he would kill John and go against his own sense of morality (murder is wrong to him), and I feel his opinion is more accurate than yours on this cuz he was born and raised muslim.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Trapped
...Is flying a fucking plane into the side of a huge tower that has some 5000+ people in it RATIONAL??? Tell me that.

Human beings are Irrational... totally.

Of course, the rationality or irrationality of humans depends on how you define the words and therefore it's subjective (of course), but I tend to agree. People are generally fucking morons and calling them rational is, I think, a bit too optimistic.

Satori

 

[E V I L]

Originally posted by Satori


JimBob would disagree with you on this as he would kill John and go against his own sense of morality (murder is wrong to him), and I feel his opinion is more accurate than yours on this cuz he was born and raised muslim.

Satori

Well, the "he" in my statement you're replying to isn't meant to apply to Jimbob. You've misunderstood something there. Check it out.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Before i delve into the spelling and pronunciation of these to terms, i would just like to take a moment to reflect on the FUCKING INSANITY of islamic religion:

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" - From the Islamic script of Quran

Now, on to the question of Allah or Alla. It is actually spelt Allah in english; Alla is only if it is written in arabic, as there is no arabic symbol for 'H'. You will also find the same thing with 'mohummed/mohhumed', In english, there is a 'H', and in both languages, it is said 'H', but there is not actual written 'h' in arabic...

Similar deal for the Quran (arabic) and Koran (English), but either way it is said 'core-an', not 'Que-ran'. I'm not exactly sure about the reason for the spelling being different... I'm still trying to find that one out, i'll get back to you when i do.

(-someone please correct me if i am wrong about one of these things, or if you have anything to add... I'm not an expert in any-way, i've just done alot of reading about muslim culture and islam...)

 

[E V I L]

Originally posted by Trapped


...Is flying a fucking plane into the side of a huge tower that has some 5000+ people in it RATIONAL??? Tell me that.

Human beings are Irrational... totally.

Is that supposed to be an intelligent and insightful comment I should address?

Logic can happens by islands. If one is a guy who believes the world (america) is against what one believes is absolutely good and essential to the world (perhaps because one doesn't know any better and is an idiot) then it's easy to see what logic and rationality there is to doing a thing which may be from our point of view Irrational. He may be mistaken, but I can guarantee he is guided by the full forces of his rationality. I think it's a grave error to interpret the religious and the clowns of the 11th in any other way.

 

[E V I L]

Originally posted by Trapped
Before i delve into the spelling and pronunciation of these to terms, i would just like to take a moment to reflect on the FUCKING INSANITY of islamic religion:

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" - From the Islamic script of Quran

Believe it or not, Islamic faith permits tolerance of christians and jews, so long as there is a possibility to live in peace and where peace is offered. It is intolerant (based on what i've read) towards an eliminativist politic that would be EXclusive of islamic faith in particular and faith in general. But that's as it should be and it's understandable. If I were religious and saw my people and my faith actively persecuted, I should take arms (jihad) too.

refer to the link i posted above.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Logic can happens by islands. If one is a guy who believes the world (america) is against what one believes is absolutely good and essential to the world (perhaps because one doesn't know any better and is an idiot) then it's easy to see what logic and rationality there is to doing a thing which may be from our point of view Irrational. He may be mistaken, but I can guarantee he is guided by the full forces of his rationality. I think it's a grave error to interpret the religious and the clowns of the 11th in any other way.

First of all, i think we possibly should have adressed the interpretation of the word 'rational' first... but no matter. BTW, my comment wasn't a stab at you or anyone... -TO ME-, i couldn't see that through fanatical islam and the fact that their beleif is hammered into them (not all, just fanatics... I'm not being a 'religioust or racist') how they could possibly be rational.

ALL religion, not just islamic, strips a personal of their will, makes them fear so that they will follow like a sheep. THIS is not rationality. it is simply fear.

Its like with christianity:

1. "uh, follow us... or you'll burn in hell forever with the devil"...
2. "uh, follow us... and you'll live happily in the clouds forever"...

 

[E V I L]

Originally posted by Satori


The guy commanding it is not just "another guy", he's a muslim cult leader, considered the direct line to alla, and his orders are not so easy to disobeyed by his loyal fearful drones as you seem to be implying.

If you feel that the religion is not built on this blind obedience, then you are basically saying that "JimBob" is either full of crap or delusional. I don't think he is either. I think he's telling the truth about his particular sect/cult/whatever. Why would he lie to his friends and make himself look like a brainwashed idiot?

Also, the personal justification for commiting atrocities in the name of "god" is pretty evident to everyone already I think and requires no explanation.

I find it a little scary how the religion appears to be devised in such a way that people would instantly go completely against their own conscience if asked to. To me, that's just perverse and what I would subjectively regard as "evil".

Satori

In this case, i would have to believe that jimbob is a part of "cult" which I think actually is defined as " a religion or religious sect generally considered to be exremist or false, with its followeresoften living communally under an authoritarian leader."

So you may dismiss his ass as a sorry lunatic, who is deprived of honesty and decency and other such principles.