Almost thought provoking

[SADUDE]

Just cause Im sick of seeing the same threads bing done over and over I figured Id give this a try.

1) What makes art better than entertainment? Some people around here say better music is appreciated for its artistic value and not as a source of entertainment.


2) What makes music done for money or selling out bad?

3) Is philosophy pointless? Some say it is a waste of time. Is it worth thinking about things that are more valuable theoretically than practically? It seems philosophy instills hopeless ideals. I like thinking about philosophically-oriented stuff. although I haven't properly read up on it as much as I would like to.

 

[lord667]

Just cause Im sick of seeing the same threads bing done over and over I figured Id give this a try.

1) What makes art better than entertainment? Some people around here say better music is appreciated for its artistic value and not as a source of entertainment.

Entertainment is a utilitarian subset of art whose only aim is to produce pleasure in the beholder. A common tendency among intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals is to characterise pleasure as the "basest" of motives; therefore, any art form which aims at pleasure alone is seen as the "basest" of art forms. Each school of philosophy has its own reasons why this should be so

2) What makes music done for money or selling out bad?

It violates the romantic myth of the artist - that image of the lupine loner toiling in ascetic devotion to his vision, with no thought of earthly reward. Again, it crops up in a wide range of philosophies, because temporal riches are not far behind raw pleasure in the demon stakes.

3) Is philosophy pointless? Some say it is a waste of time. Is it worth thinking about things that are more valuable theoretically than practically? It seems philosophy instills hopeless ideals. I like thinking about philosophically-oriented stuff. although I haven't properly read up on it as much as I would like to.

Sometimes it seems that way, but unattainable ideals drag the world along in their wake. Without philosophy, it's very doubtful that the world as we know it - the good and bad bits - would even exist.

 

[The Wanderer]

are art and entertainment necessarily seperate?

 

[AjDeath]

are art and entertainment necessarily seperate?

In most cases yes,but some of my favorite records were written by popular artists, case in point, Sting, his record Mercury Falling is one of my top ten albums of all time, I would like to note that it isn't popular, it is just by Sting.

My philosophy about art is one you have probably heard before, Art should be for Arts sake, I know it sounds selfish, but I am not in a band for the fans, I don't write songs with people in mind, I do it for me, it is the only way I can do it, this, at least to me, is infinitely my credible and worthwhile because I do it for other reasons than money or fame, I do it because it pleases ME, and helps keep my tentative touch with sanity a little stronger. To me one of the most important differences between art and entertainment is motive, this is pretty self explanatory, metal fans know this, that is how we dubbed bands "sellouts", metal has always been an against the grain, think for youreself kinda genre of music, it took influences from classical to rock to punk and merged it with a cause and an atmosphere that a lot of people feel is lacking in the worlds society at large, sometimes it just took influence from violence, and sometimes bands didn't set out to be metal, but ultimately became dubbed a metal band. Sometimes bands changed motives, sometimes they forgot the fire burning within, the passion and will to shout, to scream that we will be heard, money IS the root of all evil, type in The Beast of Brussels in any search engine and see what you find, people just don't care anymore, we became complacent, it is the next step in our evolution, total chaos and death, which sounds almost cool, but really sucks, metal has always stood up for causes, whereas pop has always gone for the cheap thrill and the lure of false love and petty emotions and created a world where EVERYTHING is A O.K. Metal has always been about the raw reality of our daily human existence and condition, the people who hate it are the people who refuse to see the reality of their own situation, and just because you refuse to see something, does not mean it doesn't exist, it just means you are ignorant. All art strives to achieve some if not all of these goals, metal is by no means beautiful, it is raw emotion, and so isn't most real art.

 

[SculptedCold]

For the most part, I completely agree with AjDeath's views. Excellent words man.

 

[DiscipleOfPlato]

For the most part, I completely agree with AjDeath's views. Excellent words man.

As do I...

 

[tal shiar agent 930]

Just cause Im sick of seeing the same threads bing done over and over I figured Id give this a try.

1) What makes art better than entertainment? Some people around here say better music is appreciated for its artistic value and not as a source of entertainment.


2) What makes music done for money or selling out bad?

3) Is philosophy pointless? Some say it is a waste of time. Is it worth thinking about things that are more valuable theoretically than practically? It seems philosophy instills hopeless ideals. I like thinking about philosophically-oriented stuff. although I haven't properly read up on it as much as I would like to.

1) because as art, we can see eye to eye with the creator of such art. for example, pot heads rooting for super joint ritual (or phil anselmo for that matter). anti crists rooting for deicide and morbid angel.

2) well, music is something that was meant to come from the bottom of someones heart, and music was meant to be something that people can cope with as well as something that they can understand clearly.

for example:

- why do you suppose so many spoiled brats love britney spears, because they come from privileged backgrounds and don't have to contend with the hardships of real life.

- the case of backstreet boys, lots of girls love them, why, because they are the epitome of what the standard mall ho wants from a man: looks, youth, money, and prestige.

- the case of metal (and i mean this in regards to today's standard) is pretty much diverse. example, death metal attracts those who have a reality based view of life in regards to the satanism, death, war, and violence. black metal attracts those who contend with hate greatly. thrash metal attracts those who questions societies values as well as facing head on. power metal attracts those who know and/or have the passion of traditional heavy metal (judas priest, motorhead, iron maiden, led zeppard, and so forth. prog metal attracts those who push the boundaries of their musical capabilities as well as pushing the sub genres boundaries.

3) philosphy these days is pretty much on the eye of the beholder, suffice to say. mainly due to the fact of our societies ever growning need of making things easier for ourselves without working for them. an example of this is when someone goes shopping (NOTE: for those of us who work in a retail shithole, you know what i mean.). a karate instructor who purchases 5 folding tables for a tournament uses them for the week long tournament, and rather than keeping the tables, takes advantage of the return policy to use the tables free of charge. of course, there are those who say "who's to say", but in terms of the nature of the situation, the business looses its business because the tables are now used, by our societies standard, and thus branding the tables down graded.

philosphy is something that we are not born with, but as humans who have the mental advantage over animals, we can see our errors, as well as what mistakes others do. and as far as hopeless ideals, its a matter of a person to bring themselves to see what's realistically reachable (like getting a 1969 charger restored), to dreaming (getting a brand new, 2004 lamborgini diablo) and trying to make it a reality. granted that such goals are achieveable, but at what price (sacrifice) is where the person(s) is willing to pay?

 

[SADUDE]

tal shiar agent 930: 1) because as art, we can see eye to eye with the creator of such art. for example, pot heads rooting for super joint ritual (or phil anselmo for that matter). anti crists rooting for deicide and morbid angel.

I don't see how that corresponds with my question. Why wouldn't a person be able to see eye to eye with the creator that has different motives? I could argue that a bunch of clone bands aren't as passionate about the music(which obviously has no standard of measurement). Maybe a band replicates an already successful formula just for the sake of selling records. It doesn't mean they can not play the same music just as good. It only means they lack creative originallity.


2) well, music is something that was meant to come from the bottom of someones heart, and music was meant to be something that people can cope with as well as something that they can understand clearly.


I think you may benefit from not having so many expectations of how things should be. Whose to say metal has to be this or that? I never read the offical metal handbook that said how things were meant to be. Please understand that your perceptions aren't universal and others have different expectations. (The above not being said in a cynical or judgmental tone)

 

[SADUDE]

are art and entertainment necessarily seperate?

In most cases yes,but some of my favorite records were written by popular artists, case in point, Sting, his record Mercury Falling is one of my top ten albums of all time, I would like to note that it isn't popular, it is just by Sting.

One person may be entertained by something another calls art. So I agree with you on this.

My philosophy about art is one you have probably heard before, Art should be for Arts sake, I know it sounds selfish, but I am not in a band for the fans, I don't write songs with people in mind, I do it for me, it is the only way I can do it, this, at least to me, is infinitely my credible and worthwhile because I do it for other reasons than money or fame, I do it because it pleases ME, and helps keep my tentative touch with sanity a little stronger.

If all "artists" felt like this what would be the point of releasing records, playing shows,or even sharing your music. Stuff like that would most definitly create an unnecessary burden on the "the artist" whose only desire was creation and/or self expression.


"To me one of the most important differences between art and entertainment is motive"

Although I do not enjoy most of Mozart's works to begin with, would you say that the compositions he wrote to make money aren't art? Are they not to up to par with the rest of his works. I can't see the boundaries here.

"All art strives to achieve some if not all of these goals, metal is by no means beautiful, it is raw emotion, and so isn't most real art."

I do not think metal has these goals. Maybe the innovators did, but things like that are just the expected standard and can be thoughtlessly duplicated because of that. As a matter of fact they are!

 

[AjDeath]

One person may be entertained by something another calls art. So I agree with you on this.



If all "artists" felt like this what would be the point of releasing records, playing shows,or even sharing your music. Stuff like that would most definitly create an unnecessary burden on the "the artist" whose only desire was creation and/or self expression."

To answer this, you will have to observe my philosophy about ignorance and reality, the ideal of creating and producing art is, if you get right down to it, for you, I for one cannot imagine sitting down and writing a riff to make money, I could do this all day, the point of art is mental and emotional stimulation, look at any piece by Monet or Van Gogh and tell me this is untrue, unfortunately, in today's reality, and reality for most artists, be they musicians or painters, is that to do what you love to do, it is now necassary to earn a living, and it has been that way ever since popular demand entered into the equation, what is funny about this is that demand for art is outrun by what thinking artists produce, true artists innovate, step beyond the comfort zone and truly create something unique, originally mozart did this, but as the populaces ideas caught up to his, and this did take awhile if you research Mozart, the demand for his pieces rose dramatically, and then he had a very human reaction to the presence of prestige and money, he wanted more, that is not to say that he didn't write great and stunning pieces of music l;ater in his career, an artist is after all, an artist, but I tend to gravitate towards his ealier more groundbreaking material. The reality and the ideal are vastly disimular, which is a very bad thing, but not too many people get Death, does that mean Chuck Schuldiner was out of touch, no, it means todays society is oput of touch.



"All art strives to achieve some if not all of these goals, metal is by no means beautiful, it is raw emotion, and so isn't most real art."

"I do not think metal has these goals. Maybe the innovators did, but things like that are just the expected standard and can be thoughtlessly duplicated because of that. As a matter of fact they are!"

My reply to this is simple, it is pretty damn easy to spot and avoid stagnant redundancy, and my advice to people who care about music, take Chucks advice, "Support music, not rumors."

 

[no country for old wainds]

1) Thing is, I don't care. I don't have the knowledge (I don't believe that anyone does) to say which bands are best, so I listen to what I enjoy listening to, whether that's Burzum or System of a Down.

2) The majority of people on this planet don't have the mental capacity to appreciate, or open their mind to good metal. Therefore, bands generally have to make their music sound worse to get more money, to sellout. If a band sells out, and people like the music, and it remains as good as it was before, that's great. But if lots of people like the music, it's likely to be crappy, in my experience.

3) I'm like you, I haven't read up on too much philosophy. But if it makes people think, it can't possibly be a waste of time.

 

[tal shiar agent 930]

2) The majority of people on this planet don't have the mental capacity to appreciate, or open their mind to good metal. Therefore, bands generally have to make their music sound worse to get more money, to sellout. If a band sells out, and people like the music, and it remains as good as it was before, that's great. But if lots of people like the music, it's likely to be crappy, in my experience.

i can agree with this only to a certain extent, but it does make sense afterall. as far as the metanl capacity,you are right, mainly due to the fact that the majority do not want to see the real problem in the world or in their lives. and yes, sadly, bands do have to dumb down their creation to make the $$$, and of course, abandoning the same people that got them to where they are.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Indeed. And I'm speaking in general terms here, there are always exceptions.

 

[speed]

Interesting post.

1) art vs entertainment- well entertainment implies pleasure and conformity( modern and capitalistic conformity) Art on the other hand- is about creation- one becoming god- or if you take another view- one becoming part of the unity of the universe. Creation and unity are truly the highest callings of man( this is the opinion of about every thinker I know of).

2) What makes music doen for money or selling out bad? Because it all goes back to creation- when a artist sacrifices creation and their talents to the idol of materialism, and money- the artist has not only shortchanged themselves- but the entire public.

3) Is philosophy pointless- yes and no- Ideology and human psychology are incompatable- there never can be an ideal- or ideology that holds true for humanity. Modern Philosophy- that after Dostoevski and Nietszche - had the great question of Metaphysical Rebellion on its hands- If God does not exist- then everything is possible- yet nothing is possible ( nietszche)- and also If God does exist, I reject him for the injustice he has done the innocent- children etc- I never can accept him( Ivan karamazov- Dostoevski) So, the question of the modern age is - If God does not exist- then all including war and murder etc is possible and acceptable- justice does not exist either on heaven or on earth- (this has held true starting with the Soviets and Nazis.- and our govs of today) So, yes philosphy becomes pointless- as all philosophy in our day and age leads to nihilsm- which offers nothing but destruction- unless you somehow still believe in God( strange) believe in justice in todays world( even stranger), and think the world is just A ok( the strangest) .

 

[AjDeath]

@Speed

Your answer to question 3 is as good as any I have heard about the nature of man and his ability to think and rationalize anything, the problem with those philosophers is that they brought human logic too far, sometimes you can think too much and too far into murky depths about something that your whole idea gets warped, I have read Nietszche, and I can't tell you that sometimes I thought I was reading a crackpots metaphor on life, I agreed with some and totally was astounded by his leaps to conclusion by other observations he put forth. To me the question of God doesn't even come into this, no matter how much you don't like them, human beings created our own mores and folkways and values, it is not a question of whether you believe in God or not that leads to cynical thinking and/or nihilism, it is how extreme you take those ideas in the first place, what a lot of these philosophers left out of the equation was personal responsibilty for your own actions, is it any wonder that our courts are now doing this same damn thing? Right and wrong are not grey areas, yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, but by and large this is the truth of our exsistence, if you pattern your behavior with our basic tenants of inherent freedom, you will realize that freedom DOES require restraint, NOT the stagnation of those freedoms and the ungodly quagmire of a blameless society. Life by its very definition demands that you grow and to make things better for yourself, you can't wait for someone or some gov't appointed official to live for you, that is when nothing gets done, when red tape is THE policy and where life declines, when 75 to 90% of the humans living on this planet stop doing for themselves, that IS anarchy. God and Heaven doesn't even come into it, it is how much we can rationalize our own actions and pass the buck onto someone else, and say, "hey this is acceptable, everyone is doing it this way." This is the mob mentality that ruins neighborhoods, this is the mob mentality that has people vote Democratic or Republican because their parents did, and their parents before them did, this is the "I will have someone else worry about my life" society, be comfortable guys, this is as good as we Humans can make it on our own. It's fucking pathetic.

 

[speed]

Well thank you I think I agree with you on most everything but I ll add these comments in support. Nice to see someone that argues and presents detialed opinons for once.

- I agree with you on rebellion- that is the fundamental contradiction in rebellion- to rebel to revolt- against the nothingness and injustice of order, morality, etc of the world- one must put another form of order in its place- and humanity shows the answer is always more order- than before. For those few of us that do find this ultimate contradiction- one can do four things in my opinion- conform ( the worst), suffer endlessly- solitarily but for all, attempt to live rebellion and understadning of this grim truth with mediation ( to understand and debate, yet not give into the the absolute negation of nihilsim- |I think this is what u ultimately have decided for yourself- i know this is what i have succumbed to)- or commit suicide.

As for right and wrong not being grey areas- isnt this precisely the problem- that they are grey areas- that there is no justice- this is what I think every modern phiosopher - has been arguing against- one wants a eternal justice( truth = justice)- yet the secular world- and Christianity do not provide it- they provide nothing but injustice and murder. How does one find truth and justice - is it even possible? I dont think it is- yet I could think of nothing worse than followng our horribly unjust legal system( i briefly attended law school) , or the equally unjust laws of abraham- and the servile, suffering justice of christ.

As for the Mob mentality- is it not the mob mentality that has been justified and deified by our present democratic- and democratic socialist govs? Have not the people become the divine- their will represented by the gov is divine and thus infallible( ROusseau) . This mob metality has been transformed into our modern nations- the mob has granted them unlimited power( and or unlimited license to do crime) The state has become deifid in a hegelian sense- we or some of us- must again appeal to others that the state is not just and right- it is a horrible slavery brought upon man- yet it cant be destroyed- it must be understood and fixed. Those fuckijg idiots that wave their flags and send their children to die in Iraq- must understand the state is not divine or infallible- that it has no right to perpetuate any such crimes against any human. The state is no longer blessed with the old divine rights of the old monarchies( and this is one of the reasons I think the muslim world hates us- they want political leaders that are religious leaders as well- states tht hjave both divine power and secular power- thus any laws and crimes the state commits are acceptable- unlike our modern secular atheistic states) Sorrry I am an anarchist at heart- and yet i know the limits of anarchism- that it cant work- still it would be nice if people would just see the light .



Have you read L'homme Revolt- by Camus- or the Myth of Sisphyus by Camus? I highly recommend them to anyone wishing to grasp a understandig on philosophy and mans position in the modern world- with terrorism and infallible state power.

And sorry for the spelling and punctuation- this has been written in great haste

 

[SADUDE]

2) The majority of people on this planet don't have the mental capacity to appreciate, or open their mind to good metal. Therefore, bands generally have to make their music sound worse to get more money, to sellout. If a band sells out, and people like the music, and it remains as good as it was before, that's great. But if lots of people like the music, it's likely to be crappy, in my experience.

I used to think like that too. Im not sure that is the case though. I think that the populace does demand less from their music but the rest of your claim seems like ethnocentrism. I don't think people not liking metal is due to intelligence. Metal is full of idiots(i.e. new slayer dvd), but has a very small population who I think are above average in intelligence. Im still unsure of how musical quallity should be rated, but I do not think popularity has anything to do with it. I have studied music and things like music theory quite in depth and still do not know what makes music good. Everyone has different preferences. Good music, bad music eh. Words like good or bad are very useless. something does not have to be categorized into the 2-valued orientation system of aristotle. Things don't have to be just good or bad. There is an infinite amount of space between the two. Besides good an bad are judgement words that say more about a speaker and their preference than the actual object of discussion. Obviously a death metal fan has different expectations than a power metal fan and the expectations are different. For example the death metal fan says rhapsody are gay because of the "Fruity piano solos and gay high-pitched vocals." These are the reasons he says Rhapsody sucks or a re bad. In reallity all he is saying is he does not like high pitched vocals and keyboard solos. The word suck is also a pointless release of frustration that describes him and his preference more than the actual music he attempted to.

 

[SADUDE]

The fundamental flaw as far as law and ethics are concerned is this. Every situation is unique and has to be treated this way. We can not look similar situations up in a book and use them. We can use them for inspiration but not cut and paste in application. The other key asset to this is who is qualified to judge the behavior of another being. As cliche as it seems around here I mostly agree with nihilism. I do believe however if there is one purpose to existance it would be to avoid suffering. This being the case in individual as well as in a group setting. Peaceful coexistance. The only way this can be accheived is by the abolition of individually. That is the price of harmony which I don't see being worth it. This is the cause of tension and problems. The natural desire of some sort of peace by humans and there will to be different. Things like religion, sexual orientation, country, different governments, different races etc etc must be outlawed. That is not going to happen. These are the source of problems. I hope other people see the simplicity behind that. Socialism will never work. Enemy At The Gates has a quote that says it best. "Rich in gifts, poor in gifts, rich in love, poor in love." There is always something to envy. Even if one wanted to accheive this global equallity I don' see how it would be done. If the world was entirely socialist the above flaws would still apply. We can not deny that we are all unique. Even if we could control the social circumstance, the biological ones will still fuck it all up.


I am sure I rambled so here is the summary of the problems of the world and ethics from my POV

Summary: We are born unique with an inherent desire for some sort of peace.


note: Peace as this post is concerned can be self-peace at the most superficial of levels.

 

[SADUDE]

There is no truth. Nor does right or wrong exist. Popular opinion does

 

[AjDeath]

In reply to all of you who took the time to think about the nature of reality and the nature of man and soicety on a philosophical and sociological level, THANKS OH SO FUCKIN MUCH, trying to get into these subjects with other "metal heads" is very impossible and always gets the same reaction, "What?" It dissapoints me that some people merely exist and do not try to make their life their own.

As I posted in the Iced Earth forum, Freedom is inherent within all of us, it is the nature of life itself, think about it, how can it not be? Only man sets restraints on his life, the MAJOR thing wrong today is that different peoples don't see other people as the same as them, they see themselves as different, when in reality the only difference between them is where they are born, and what YOKE society has placed them under, case in point, The Untouchables of India, degraded, murdered, discriminated against by the Hindu religion, Ghandi failed to free them, millions and millions of Untouchables are eeking out an exsistence because some out dated moral law says they were born unclean, and yet people worldwide say that Hinduism is an enlightened form of "religion." Ignorance is not religion, it is mankinds vision of religion, it is mankinds twisted perversions of power and ability to act through percieved intelligence. Christianity took this same route, and follows that path today, so doesn't the Muslim religion, I truly believe that religion is a true and tangible ideal, corrupted by man it is a dangerous weapon of self aggrandisement and mans darker side of masochism and hate. I truly believe that a God does exist, it may be mans' way to rationalize existense, it is my way, I don't go to church, I don't preach, I don't tell people how to live, I don't force my opinion on others and I always temper my thoughts on reality, existence, ignorance, and morality with logic and reason. This said, I think a lot can be learned through the New Testament, I tend to take it literally, as irrational as that seems, only for the strength those beliefs give me, right and wrong do exist, I thought I explained my feelings on the nature of right and wrong, but looking back at it, it seems I was a little vague, right and wrong do exist, and so doesn't absolute truth, if I killed someone, is this not the truth of the situation, that I killed him? It is reality, now what the problem is is determining the right and wrong of it, why did I kill him?, self defence? hate? accidental? The grey areas do go on forever, but there has to be a point when you have enough information to make a decision, this is called reasoning, all humans have the capacity to do this, but what if the grey is all there is, well, this is where all humanity is now marching towards, a brand new dark age of blamelessness, "IT WAS SOCIETIES FUALT THAT I KILLED HIM!" Oh really now, is it really societies fualt, it is, if you do not want to suffer the consequences of YOUR actions, you did it, not society, YOU killed him, not I freind, and I will not kill you, but you need to be punished and/or reformed, the problem with the U.S. justice system is that there is no reform, yes, telling the difference between people who can be reformed and those who cannot is difficult, but the ends do not justify the means in justice, you can't just lock up every one a la Stalin and throw them into the Gulag to keep your power, oh you may have the means to do it, but then revolution occurs, sheeple will eventually percieve the gross injustice of this situation and kill you, just as it is happeing here, albeit very slowly, in the U.S. Freedom tempered with reality and reason CAN work, but it will ultimately fail. Just like every system breaks down, all ideals and philosophies do too.