Almost thought provoking

[AjDeath]

I wasnt trying to imply you were a geek- just that many people would find my book selections- and your fantasy selections to be a bit odd and eccentric- which is a good thing if you ask me.

I was joking anyways, really i don't take the time out of my life to care about what poeple think about me, 99% of the time they are wrong and I don't feel the need to explain myself. Forming preconceptions about individuals is a crime I commit occasionally. but usually my preconception turn into misconceptions, so I try to look at things from every possible angle, and while sometimes I meet people who think I am very eccentric and "weird", I usually end up being their friends, or at least friendly aquaintances. And sometimes I meet people who hate the fact that I am honest to the point of being brutal, it is really funny how people do not want to hear the truth, they want to hear what they want to hear. I give them none of that bullshit, I give them what they aksed for.

 

[speed]

Yeah - we are all guilty of stereotyping- at least when one first meets a person. I am guilty- very guilty- of stereotyping power metal and fantasy metal fans- and they usually are pretty cool guys.

Honesty to the point of brutality is surely a cross which you must bear every day. I cant say I am that honest at all times- I wish I was.

 

[SADUDE]

There is no absolute truth, get over it. Truth is just something that is agreed upon. I can not prove it doesn't exist but you can't prove it does. There is no extensional reference to truth. You can not point to truth and show me it. It is an abstraction. Even if you could point to it and show me, how could you prove that you weren't being deceived by your perception. How do you know you weren't born with flawed perception? The same applies to me. I can see how agreement and compromise can be beneficial especially in the context of a society, but strip away social cooperation to get deeper into the nature of something. We can not know the nature of anything. we can only agree to acheive common goals. We could study just one thing in this universe and never ever know everything about it. Why? Because the universe and it's contents are in constant change. By the time we discuss something we are no longer talking about the same thing. This applies to everything if you want to go down to the molecular level. Most people do not want to go this deep though. Do I believe discussion at this level is necessary all of the time? NO! But understand that we are moving further away from any kind of non-existant absolute truth. Linguistic philosophy/semantics I believe is the best approach to thinking. And that is my direction. Although my study of it has given me a little push into the realm of nihilism. My view of the best is to avoid living in ignorance, and be open-minded enough to consider the possibility of anything. It doesn't matter if any of my opinions are agreed upon. I am more interested with what other people say anyways. I like to be influenced. I don't put up barriers of ignorance when discussing. What is the point of discussing if you just want to hear yourself talk? If you aren't tryng to learn something you are most likely just talking to yourself. Why interact in an intellectual manner then?

Disclaimer: I do not consider anything I say to be "true" or "right".

 

[speed]

Well said Sadude- The question I have for you- is do you see the constant change of the universe as beneficial to man in general?


Ive read a few ooks on linguistics- philosophy- very interesting- they do make a strong point- without language an would be nothing.

 

[AjDeath]

@Sadude-Allright, If I point at you and you are standing up, and I say you are standing up, is this a false statement?

Question and answer time kiddies-

Man 1- Nothing is real. We can't know if what we see, if anything, is real or not. How could you?

Man 2-If you see it, then how can you possibly think it isn't real?

Man 1-Because our senses all the time distort the truth of reality and decieve us. Our senses only delude us into the illusion of certainty. We can't see at night-our sight tells us that the night is empty-but an owl can snatch up a mouse that with our eyes we couldn't sense was there. Our reality says the mouse didn't exist-yet we know it must, in spite of what our vision tells us- that another reality exists outside our experience. Our sight, rather than revealing the truth, hides the truth from us-worse, it gives us a false idea of reality.

Man 2-And Yet I see you, are you not real, are my eyes decieving me?

Man 1-WHat we see is only an apparent reality, mere appearances, a self-imposed illusion, all based on our flawed perception. Nothing is real.

Man 2-In other words, you do not like what you see in the world, so you choose, instead, to say it isn't real.

Man 1-I can't say what is real. Neither can you. to say otherwise is unenlightened arrogance. A truly enlightened man admits his woeful ineffectiveness when confronting his existence.

Man 2-Such whimsy can only bring you to a life of misery and quaking fear, a life wasted and never truly lived. You had better start using your mind for its true purpose of knowing the world around you, instead of abandoning it to faith in irrational notions. The information our senses give us must be taken in context. If I close my eyes the sun doesn't stop shining. WHen I go to sleep I'm conciously unaware of anything; that doesn't mean that the world ceases to exist. You have to use the information from your senses in context along with what you have learned to be true about the nature of things. things don't change because of the way we think about them. What is, is.

Man 1-But if we don't experience something with our own senses, then how can we know it is real?

Man 2-I cannot get pregnant. So would you argue that for me women do not exist?


Comments please.

 

[SADUDE]

Well said Sadude- The question I have for you- is do you see the constant change of the universe as beneficial to man in general?


Ive read a few ooks on linguistics- philosophy- very interesting- they do make a strong point- without language an would be nothing.

Language is as beneficial to man as it is destructive. Without language their can not be thought, or society. It is necessary for cooperative interaction within our species. Unfortunately language can prevent thought as much as it helped to create it. One of the biggest flaws of mankind is confusing the symbol with what is symbolized. Take flag burning. If you burned an American flag in America right now, you are sure to get your ass beat maybe even killed. Im not going to discuss the blind patriotism of my country here though. People equate the burning of the flag as burning say democracy, freedom etc. Those are the things the flag is said to stand for. In reallity freedom isn't on fire; a piece of cloth is. Why do people get so upset over a piece of cloth that is made for practically nothing in the sweatshops of (insert third-world country)? This principle is applicable to many situations. Then there are things like connotations. One says nurse, someone automatically assumes female. One says terrorist one assumes bad. Propaganda is successful somewhat due to that and other things.


Well like language I think the constantly changing universe is a double-bladed battle axe. The constantly changing universe will cause the inevitable extinction of our species someday. I have to come to enjoy change personally. As I have accepted the insignificance of myself in the time space continuum, I have come to enjoy change. I hate stagnation. I can't listen to my cds in their chronological order. I love the random button on my stereo. Change is something we have no choice about. We are objects of the universe and are not discluded from this change. Change on a grand-scale provides us with advantages and disadvantages in a survival sense. Beneficial is almost an empty word to me. It is subjective as is just about everything. And I prefer it(change). That is the best I can answer this. To me I only see 2 concrete valuables/points to existance.

Life is the only thing i consider unarguably invaluable. I usually tend to stay out of matters of law because of this. I don't know who is qualified to decide the fate of another. Especially in matters of murder/death.


As I have said before avoiding suffering and desiring peace is intrinsic. Someone may take this from another to get it for themselves.

Those are the things i am the most certain about.

 

[SADUDE]

@Sadude-Allright, If I point at you and you are standing up, and I say you are standing up, is this a false statement?

If it wasn't false that does not make it true either. I don't see things in black and white Aristotle style. Standing is only the name given to reference a particular alignment of molecules. The word is not the thing. The symbol is not the symbolized. Pitfalls of language.
Ok say I was elderly and I could only stand up so straight. That is different than say someone who could. The angle at the waste between the torso and legs are different for each. Why would both situations be referred to as the same when they are obviously different. Nothing in the universe is the same as anything else. It isn't even the same as itself over time. Situations are like this as well. Words are only variables to our thought. They mean different things to different people. THey are symbols that represent what we let them. I could say pi(e). You might be thinking dessert while I think about math.


You are probably going to dismiss me as a wise ass, and consider me unreasonable by the time you are reading this sentence. I hope you can be more open-minded than that though. Don't be too sure of what you know. A healthy level of skepticism never hurt.

I'll reread and respond to the rest of your post later AJ. I have to work my graveyard shift and prepare the store for tomorrows consumer whores.

I appreciate being able to discuss non-superficial matters with all of you. Thank you

 

[lord667]

If it wasn't false that does not make it true either. I don't see things in black and white Aristotle style. Standing is only the name given to reference a particular alignment of molecules. The word is not the thing. The symbol is not the symbolized. Pitfalls of language.

But it is automatically implied that "I am standing" means "I am arranging my molecules in the pattern thus symbolised", and therefore it is true by equivalence.

Ok say I was elderly and I could only stand up so straight. That is different than say someone who could. The angle at the waste between the torso and legs are different for each. Why would both situations be referred to as the same when they are obviously different.

They are not obviously different. "Standing" does not refer to a particular mode of standing; it refers to all cases of molecular re-alignment that bring the alleged human onto his two feet. To say that he "stood erect" would be false; this is a smaller subset to which the elderly man's action does not belong; but it is entirely correct to refer to both instances by the same symbol, since as with most words, it is a symbol for a set and not an instance.

 

[Ravnanger]

I think there are those who like art and those who just like being entertained. And those who like art like artsy music and the others just like enternatining music. Art can be entertaning and entertainment can be arty (the art of entertainment he he)

 

[AjDeath]

@Sadude- I know exactly what you are saying, the universe is infinite, and change is constant, language can only take you so far, for instance, if I say to you the word "stand", you might think I mean microphone stand when I realy mean the physical act, and someone else might think I mean the symbology of taking a stand. The English language is by far the worst when it comes to one word meaning multiple things, and it isn't really that thoughtful of a language either, one of my biggest regrets about school is not learning another language. Anyways, the key to my philosophy here is this. You have to use the information from your senses in context along with what you have learned in life through experience, and Please READ and THINK about this, I am not trying to be a prick I just really want you to mull this over, Things do not change because of the way you think about them. What is, is.

You have to use your senses in context. I already gave one example about woman, here is another; Poison Ivy, when most people get into a patch of poison ivy, they blister and itch. Some rare people do not. That doesn't mean poison ivy doesn't exist, or, more to the point, that its existence depends on whether or not we think it's there. What is, is.


@lord667- Thank you for agreeing with me on this point, not too many people responding have so far, and although we disagree about some things, I appreciate the back-up.

 

[speed]

Sadude you raise many good points- yet I will challenge you on one of them- you said resisting suffering is one of two things all humans do intrinsicly- I disagree. Life is suffering, Christ was suffering, Buddha was suffering, the path to anything great begins with suffering- if anything humans welcome- not resist suffering.

I do very much agree with you on symbolism- in language. Just a aside- did you notice in school how all these great authors one only reads while forced to in high school or college- overuse symbolism in their works- its as if thats all their work is about- trying to figure out the authors obscure or heavy handed symbolism. Well anyay, just a rant I have with most so called classic literature.

 

[SADUDE]

@Sadude- I know exactly what you are saying, the universe is infinite, and change is constant, language can only take you so far, for instance, if I say to you the word "stand", you might think I mean microphone stand when I realy mean the physical act, and someone else might think I mean the symbology of taking a stand. The English language is by far the worst when it comes to one word meaning multiple things, and it isn't really that thoughtful of a language either, one of my biggest regrets about school is not learning another language. Anyways, the key to my philosophy here is this. You have to use the information from your senses in context along with what you have learned in life through experience, and Please READ and THINK about this, I am not trying to be a prick I just really want you to mull this over, Things do not change because of the way you think about them. What is, is.

I appreciate and respect your opinion, but I disagree. It is still just your opinion but I enjoy hearing it.

You have to use your senses in context. I already gave one example about woman, here is another; Poison Ivy, when most people get into a patch of poison ivy, they blister and itch. Some rare people do not. That doesn't mean poison ivy doesn't exist, or, more to the point, that its existence depends on whether or not we think it's there. What is, is.

There is so much hidden in our language that we are usually unware of. I already discussed connotations. But think of all the hidden assumptions. Here is a limitation of the english language. "Poison Ivy makes you itch." I don't want to call this statement false but it sort of is.
A more literal translation would be "Poison Ivy makes all people itch" That is basically what was said, and i am sure you agree that is not the case. Common usuage of the language is non-descript and very assumptive. A more accurate statement would be "Poison Ivey makes me itch." Most statements are like this. In this case everyone is implied. These things cause a lot of problems.





Here is a little expiriment. Try telling snow exists to an aboriginee of some tropical island. Trying explaining it to him. You might want to start by explaining the concept of cold. You can't bring snow to the island either. I will play the hypothetical role of this person and show you how hard this is. There is no electricity on this island so your fridge freezer loophole won't work. He won't leave the island either. Im not trying to turn this thread into a role-playing game but if you want to give it a shot, go for it. It will be amusing. It is most likely impossible unless he experiences these things. Snow does not exist to him. makes you any more right than him? Snow exists to you. A lot more people will agree with you than him. Such is the case with all matters of reallity. Truth is majority rules. Say the aboriginee did allow you take him off the island and show him snow, it doesn't matter. Unless you can get everyone of these people to agree it is pointless. Absolute Truth could be more convincing if you could get every person to agree on just one thing. Even then Im sure there is a flaw though.

"Reallity is an illusion we devise to keep ourselves sane." Jean Baudrillard

 

[SADUDE]

AJ it seems you want to put boundaries on the universe and try to explain everything with one simple equation. Things such as your experiences have shaped your view of the world. You seem to be trying to mold the world to your preconceived view of it. Your view of the world must change because the world itself does. You haven't experienced everything; so how can you be so certain? How can you claim there to be indefinite unchangables like truth? How can you not be skeptical?

 

[AjDeath]

@SADUDE- The last reply you have just made is completely wrong,

"You have to use the information from your senses in context along with what you have learned in life through experience"



This implies not only your experiences, but that of which you can learn, the word experiences is not key, learn is. I added it because we as humans usually learn through our experiences, but there are other ways to learn, I read as much as I can about eveything, I also don't let anyone think for me, and yes, I base some of those ideas on what I have learned personally, but not all of them.

Also, truth is not majority rules, this really surprised me when I read it, Mark Twain once said something to the effect that If you find yourself on the side of popular opinion, you better look at your ideals. The truth is, the truth is hard to find about anything, and that you must admit is a truth Because of mans ability to analyze everything to the point where the analysis is moot, any "truth" can be found, any assumption can be a truth to the one who assumes, yet he is usually wrong,look at any theory or law of physics, they are basically educated assumptions, but do we actually know for real? I don't know. How can anyone know how gravity works, we can make inferences and assumption but when it comes down to it, noone actually knows, yet we teach them as absolute truths. Evolution is another great example of mob truth. I make decisions for myself, while I tend to agree with most laws of physics, I also admit the possiblity of those laws being incorrect. This being said, there are things in my life that I have seen and or have looked at all sides of that I have formed a truth for me, to murder for reasons of hate, personal gain, and abuse of power is WRONG!
To steal in want of something is wrong. Notice I didn't say need. Abusing any power of any kind for reasons of greed, apathy or personal gain is wrong. Also mans unlimited ability for hate, love, apathy, obsession, greed, enduring, suffering, deceit, and ignorance is a reality I have come to know well.


If you look at it, we basically have the same belief system, with a few major differences to be sure, I do not trust anyone but me, I don't believe anyone, but I have found that people believe me when I say something, they know I try my hardest to tell the truth and when I say I'll do something, I'll do it. Like that cheesy ass Peter Pan movie says, "My word is my bond." Honestly, I was never always this way, I used to be a compulsive liar, whatever you wanted to here, I would say it, I have come to hate that part of me, it caused nothing but pain in my life, not to mention embarassment, that is what made me the loud mouthed asshole I am today and I wouldn't change it, it was one of the things about me that made me look into myself and say,"fuck this, never again." Now it is the truth or nothing. Life experiences taken in context of life itself is growth.

And that is a truth.


BTW, I am a major skeptic and cynic(Cynic ) but I have chosen to accept things I cannot change.

 

[AjDeath]

Bump, I just can't see this thread disappear, I won't let it happen