Another doubt about kick replacement

::XeS::

::XeS::

Member
Mar 30, 2005
4,546
1
36
Italy
www.myspace.com
Actually I'm mixing an album and I'm looking for the right kick sound.
Today the 90% of the metal records have perfect kicks (like Andy's works for example) but I have many difficulties to get a similar perfect sound.
Andy says he replace the kick 100% with samples so, why he use a microphone and a trigger instead of using only the kick trigger?
Another doubt is: when I listen my natural kick, already edited on grid, it sounds like shit on the fast parts...but in the metal albums the kicks are so awesome and perfect in the fast double pedal parts (last Devildriver for example, kickass kick sound)...so perfect that they seem midi tracks, edited on grid, with a sample at 100%.
I think it because in one of the song I'm working on, I has to export the entire kick track and transform it to midi with drumtracker, cause it was fucked up. I write it when it was wrong and I triggered it 100% with my samples...and it gives me the same impression of the "perfect" kicks we can listen in out favourite albums.
And also if I have the perfect natural kick, edited perfectly to the grid, no mistakes, with a little bit of natural sound and a sample to reinforce....it doesn't sound good.
And I don't understand if I have the wrong approach to this thing, or if I'm right to think about the midi shit :D
 
The problem is that my miced tracks are just perfect (speaking of tight performance) but I get the pro sound, only with a midi track and a sample 100%.
 
Who cares if it's MIDI and 100% replaced if it sounds good? ;) I really can't ever think of a circumstance for anything remotely rock/metal where I'd want a mic'ed kick (the most I'd do is mic it to make a couple of samples, and then trigger those at consistent velocity throughout the whole song/album)
 
::XeS:: said:
Here an example. The kick is natural kick for the low frequencies and the midi with the samples for the high freq.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1436721/Drumma.mp3

Speaking about Andy, what I don't understand is "why he used a mic and a trigger if he replaces with sample 100%? He could use only the trigger signal".
Click to expand...

Maybe just to make sure the trigger is 100% accurate? The mic might pick something up that the trigger doesn't and vice versa.

If I had channels to spare, I'd do the same thing. Think of it more as a fail-safe.

If it takes converting to MIDI and replacing 100%, who cares? As long as it sounds good, it is good =D
 
::XeS:: said:
The problem is that my miced tracks are just perfect (speaking of tight performance) but I get the pro sound, only with a midi track and a sample 100%.
Click to expand...

No offense, but many musicians think their performance is perfect, and many of them are wrong, it's the subtleties that seperate the great studio players from the average ones. I bet one of the reasons many pros use samples so much is because the perfomances don't cut it.

If your performance is truly 'perfect', and your drum sounds good, then it's simple a matter of putting the mic in the right spot, it's definitely do-able. Most likely if you're getting a sound you don't like, it's because something isn't right. I would especially experiment with tuning, read the DTB in my sig, utter brilliance. You also may not be getting enough beater click in the mic, which will make everything seem undefined. Definitely experiment with positioning a lot.

I guess I'm kinda a purist in that sense, I don't mind using comps and eqs, but I hate using samples. I like dynamic performances with some noise and dirt...you know, humans. Musicians. So many records are so autotuned, BD, drumagog to death, and they sound like computers. :puke:
 
::XeS:: said:
And also if I have the perfect natural kick, edited perfectly to the grid, no mistakes, with a little bit of natural sound and a sample to reinforce....it doesn't sound good.
Click to expand...

That's probably because "metal" kicks sound completely unnatural. Most of them just use the 'thump' and the 'click', and cut out all the actual body of the drum. Then it's compressed to fuckery and often has some kind of transient designer type effect done to it - as well as being cut up and perfectly aligned to the grid.

Often the problem on faster parts with more natural sounding kicks is the sustain of the 'thump' muddying things up - some people use a low-shelf to shave some of the low-end off during those sections.

Steve
 
aclarson said:
No offense, but many musicians think their performance is perfect, and many of them are wrong, it's the subtleties that seperate the great studio players from the average ones. I bet one of the reasons many pros use samples so much is because the perfomances don't cut it.
Click to expand...

:) I'm not offended because it's not "my" performance....I spoke about the tracks I'm working on...the drummer is a client.
Great advices anyway.
This time I definitely did a mistake in the mic placement into the kick, but I have to live with it. Next time I'll spend more time checking the right placement.
Damn drums! :D

What do you think about that sample?
 
Suicide_As_Alibi said:
That's probably because "metal" kicks sound completely unnatural. Most of them just use the 'thump' and the 'click', and cut out all the actual body of the drum. Then it's compressed to fuckery and often has some kind of transient designer type effect done to it - as well as being cut up and perfectly aligned to the grid.

Often the problem on faster parts with more natural sounding kicks is the sustain of the 'thump' muddying things up - some people use a low-shelf to shave some of the low-end off during those sections.
Click to expand...

This is pretty spot on.

If you have a fast kick part, automate kick volume down, or better yet, have a second kick track for that part only with the high-pass set closer to 110hz or so.

Transient designers help SO MUCH. Get one and play with it. It has made a GIGANTIC difference in my drum sounds, especially on all natural tracks.

Music is not the same as it used to be. Cymbals are played louder, drums are more compressed, player's talents have decline. Making samples of the kit is very important. Also, if you're replacing a kick you have to be SUPER SUPER careful about phase allignment, otherwise a large part of the low end of the kick is going to disappear and you'll fight with the low end of your mix (Slate mentioned this somewhere, figures right :saint:)
 
::XeS:: said:
Here an example. The kick is natural kick for the low frequencies and the midi with the samples for the high freq.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1436721/Drumma.mp3

Speaking about Andy, what I don't understand is "why he used a mic and a trigger if he replaces with sample 100%? He could use only the trigger signal".
Click to expand...

then wouldnt he just use trigger pads if it was a case of accuracy he was looking for?
lol whatever
his shit sounds good.
 
dominion is really cool, and free :)

actually, since i started using transient designers my mixes have improved tenfold. i often use them on kick and snare to really shape the attack vs body - sometimes on toms too.
not seldom i'll not even use any compression after that (exept drum bus or sth), i prefer the control of the transient designer vs plain old compression. for metal at least
 
Ok, I'm experimenting this:
I take the trigger kick track and I import it in Drumtracker and I trasform it to midi. I re-import the midi in PT and I put aptrigga with my sample (wet 100%) and I stamp it in an audio track.
Now I bus the natural kick and the new sampled kick to a Kick bus and that's all.
It's a little too much tricky I think....it would be cool to have a quicker solution :)
 
+1 for a Transient designer. With one you can really get your drums to punch out in the mix. Great for kick and snare. I have used them on guitars as well as bass. I have tried the transient monster and the oxford transmod, transmod sounds alot better with more control, but you defienlt pay for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mattayus
Drum replacement: Best way to go about it?
Replies
4
Views
1K
F.O.H.
greyskull
G
S
SM58 Kick Drum
Replies
5
Views
1K
F.O.H.
guitarguru777
G
Unavailable
Why does this kick sound so much better?
Replies
11
Views
2K
F.O.H.
vespiz
V
Sean in Silence
Metal Kick Eq Help
Replies
21
Views
5K
F.O.H.
Sean in Silence
S
M
need help. saturated kick
Replies
7
Views
910
F.O.H.
Kohugaly
K
Top Bottom
Back