Another interesting editorial from another site...

[Jim LotFP]

http://www.metalcrypt.com/pages/editorials.php?editorialid=19

Quotes of note:

"Now here I am going to have to go briefly into why rap and metal cannot coexist. Briefly, it is thus: Rap is about Black People, Metal is about White People."

"Let's be honest here. 99% of metal has something to do with white people, specifically European people. Metal originated in England, after all, and is still most popular in Europe. This is not a racial distinction, but a cultural one. Metal lyrics and themes reflect a European point of view, code of honor, and sense of history. Yes, there are a lot of bands right now into the Middle eastern stuff, like Nile, Melechesh, etc. But I will point out that these bands are into the mythology and folklore of those regions, which has been a focus of white European fascination for over a century. There are exceptions to my generalization, but overall it is pretty safe to say that metal is made by people with European heritage, for the same people. Look at metal bands – do you see a lot of black guys in bands? You have South Americans – who are also fascinated by Northern Europe and its heritage – but even the very few bands from Africa are made up of white guys. So let's just admit it – metal is white, and I don't mean that as a taboo, but as a statement of observable fact. Metal is rooted in our culture, that is why it appeals so strongly to us in the first place. So a band with a different perspective is going to have a hard time."

And the editorial isn't even about this.

 

[BenMech]

oh Crikey

 

[Occam's Razor]

The other band features on that site speak for themselves...Grand Belial's Pee, etc...

 

[Occam's Razor]

I was rifling through cds I intend to sell off. This one is among them because the debut is all I need from them: "Perpetual Being" (Massacre, 1994) by Mystik from Cleveland is boring apart from one or two songs.


This is track 6, "Black Thing"
I see where they're at, but nevertheless odd. If they had been a bigger band, that would have been controversial...

"bad feelings are rising in the city streets again
I hear some people cryin'
we need more rights if we're to win
over compensating our policy seems to be
I know the future for certain
I'll be a minority
this is my world
and nobody handed me no job
busted last night for long hair and an old car
set the city a flame there's a 7-11 I wanna rob
with hatred on your sleeves
an an x on your hat
displaying aggressive racial pride
we don't need no more of that
learned the finer points of racism
on the Phil and Oprah show
You're talking way too much than most
people just don't want to know
hey man the blues ain't your monopoly
don't blame me I don't owe you shit
just as good ain't good enough
to pay them back
we always give forever for crimes of the past
equal rights ain't what they want
revenge is where they're at
oh yeah I said
freedom is dead"

 

[Zealotry]

Angry white males are amusing.

 

[Zealotry]

Metal originated in England, after all, and is still most popular in Europe. This is not a racial distinction, but a cultural one. Metal lyrics and themes reflect a European point of view, code of honor, and sense of history.

Yah, I'm sure Black Sabbath, Venom and Motorhead cared deeply about honor and white history.

Gimme a fucking break. Metal is not specifically for anyone.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Because, after all, those denunciations of hypocrisy and the praise of vikings, warriors, ancient Greeks etc. that litter the lyrical content of the metal of the formative years shows absolutely no concern for ideals of honor or for European history...

 

[Zealotry]

Because, after all, those denunciations of hypocrisy and the praise of vikings, warriors, ancient Greeks etc. that litter the lyrical content of the metal of the formative years shows absolutely no concern for ideals of honor or for European history...

Honor and honesty are two different things. Vikings, Warriors and Ancient Greeks didn't come into the picture until Iron Maiden came into the picture, and even then they were looking at things from a purely literary perspective, and were just as likely to look to east Asia and the Middle East for inspiration.

And anyway, if you're going to limit a genre to its roots specifically, why not claim that metal is a Christian form of music? After all... "After Forever"...

 

[DBB]

White man came across the sea
He brought us pain and misery
He killed our tribes, he killed our creed
He took our game for his own need

We fought him hard we fought him well
Out on the plains we gave him hell
But many came too much for cree
Oh will we ever be set free?

White Europeans have no monoply on honor, bravery and history.

That editorial is just a horrendous piece of work on so many levels (more on it later perhaps).

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Honor and honesty are two different things.

"Honesty" is valued in metal because it is an aspect of honor. Hypocrisy is similarly rejected because it displays a lack of honor. The values metal celebrates (integrity, Will to Power, courage, virility, authenticity etc.) are the values of a peculiarly Indo-European warrior ethos, a "white" conception of honor lies at the center of metal's value system.

Vikings, Warriors and Ancient Greeks didn't come into the picture until Iron Maiden came into the picture,

All of these subjects are found in the work of formative metal and proto-metal bands like Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, Judas Priest and Legend. You are simply incorrect. Try again.

And anyway, if you're going to limit a genre to its roots specifically, why not claim that metal is a Christian form of music? After all... "After Forever"...

A song that closes with an explicit rejection of Christian belief. You're really grasping at straws here friend. Why is it so important to you to give non-whites a stake in white music?

 

[Zealotry]

"Honesty" is valued in metal because it is an aspect of honor. Hypocrisy is similarly rejected because it displays a lack of honor. The values metal celebrates (integrity, Will to Power, courage, virility, authenticity etc.) are the values of a peculiarly Indo-European warrior ethos, a "white" conception of honor lies at the center of metal's value system.

None of these concepts are patently European, anyway. You'll find the same principles are indispensible to East Asian values systems as well, among others.

All of these subjects are found in the work of formative metal and proto-metal bands like Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, Judas Priest and Legend. You are simply incorrect. Try again.

Again, the relevance is strictly literary. Simply recounting an event or cultural element in a musical context does not mean endorsing it.
Besides, Led Zeppelin had plenty of love songs, and Judas Priest's material was rife with gay innuendo. Should we take that to mean these ideals are also integral to metal?

A song that closes with an explicit rejection of Christian belief. You're really grasping at straws here friend.

You show me this so-called rejection and I'll show you some prime oceanside property in Montana. Ozzy Osbourne and Tony Iommi are both outspoken Christians.

Why is it so important to you to give non-whites a stake in white music?

Because I don't like seeing artificial limits imposed on art. I don't like the idea that some talented individuals out there might feel that just because they're not white means they're not welcome in metal. There's too much explicit bigotry creeping up into the genre as it is, but it's the implied racism that truly bothers me.
I also find it absolutely adorable when people try to ascribe an intrinsic sense of culture to what is inherently a cultureless form of music.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

None of these concepts are patently European, anyway. You'll find the same principles are indispensible to East Asian values systems as well, among others.

Untrue, East Asian honor codes are constructed around the ideals of "face" (that is, of public standing) and harmony, and are concerned primarily with the proper performance of social ritual. The ethical idealism of European honor codes is notably lacking. The "honorable" man in Chinese or Japanese society is the man who correctly fulfills the complex web of social gestures, protocols and obligations. Forthrightness, honesty, even physical courage are not nearly so prized as decorum.

Again, the relevance is strictly literary. Simply recounting an event or cultural element in a musical context does not mean endorsing it.

Embracing it as an ideal (which most bands did), on the other hand, is an endorsement.

Besides, Led Zeppelin had plenty of love songs, and Judas Priest's material was rife with gay innuendo. Should we take that to mean these ideals are also integral to metal?

You're missing the point. I'm talking about themes explored by virtually every metal band from the word go, and you're talking about a few isolated examples from the catalogs of two bands. If the distinction isn't obvious to you, then you're too stupid to continue conversing with.

You show me this so-called rejection and I'll show you some prime oceanside property in Montana. Ozzy Osbourne and Tony Iommi are both outspoken Christians.

"Yes, I think it's too late" (you know, the last line, the one that comes in and turns the whole meaning of the song on its head?)

Oh horseshit, Iommi spent the vast majority of his career attacking religious belief in one form or another. As for Ozzy, he's a drug addled moron who consistently says things that make it clear he hasn't a fucking clue what Christianity actually is.

Because I don't like seeing artificial limits imposed on art.

No one iss imposing "artificial" limits on art. They're just pointing out where the boundaries inherent to a given form are. Rap lies outside the expressive range of metal, people who try to drag it in can never create anything meaningful, just a jumble of ideas that cannot coexist.

I don't like the idea that some talented individuals out there might feel that just because they're not white means they're not welcome in metal.

Similarly, no one has suggested that non-whites aren't welcome in metal, the article in question merely suggested that expressive forms whose ideals are alien to those of metal cannot coexist effectively in the same artistic space as metal. You turned an innocent commentary on the limits of artistic communication into some nefarious attempt to keep the darkies out. Grow up.

 

[Occam's Razor]

expressive forms whose ideals are alien to those of metal cannot coexist effectively in the same artistic space as metal. You turned an innocent commentary on the limits of artistic communication into some nefarious attempt to keep the darkies out. Grow up.

Bullshit - what "alien" ideals are you talking about? What crucially different ideals should blacks have that could prevent them from feeling comfortable in metal? I don't know the point of this article other than that it indeed questions the legitimacy of other ethnicities in metal. If anybody's ideal does not fit into metal, it doesn't matter what color his skin has. There's a lot of alleged metal out there played by whites I would not consider to be metal considering the ideals behind it...

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Bullshit - what "alien" ideals are you talking about?

Did you not even read the article? The question at hand concerns whether rap is compatible with metal, period. It's not about race, it's not about ethnicity, it's about whether one form of expression with a worldview and value system utterly alien to that of metal can be successfully melded with metal. The article references race at all only to illustrate the radically different origins and outlooks of the two expressive forms and to show their incompatibility. You and Zealotry are trying to make this something it isn't, which is more than a little mendacious.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You don't have to tell me what the article is about. I simply don't see the point of discussing this at all, because mixing metal with rap doesn't result in metal, which is nothing new. And it hasn't anything to do with race either, so I don't see the point. Rap may be predominantly black music, and metal predominantly white, but this is not the reason why they don't match...well they can go together of course, but the result has nothing to do with metal and is probably not appreciated by "true" hip-hoppers either. Remember Body Count being criticised back then by the rap community for selling out to rock?

 

[Zealotry]

"Yes, I think it's too late" (you know, the last line, the one that comes in and turns the whole meaning of the song on its head?)

Way to misinterpret things.

Embracing it as an ideal (which most bands did), on the other hand, is an endorsement.

Bullshit. The only ideals early metal bands embraced were alcohol, drugs and rock & roll. Don't try to romanticize a form of music that, for all intents and purposes, emerged from the gutter.

No one iss imposing "artificial" limits on art. They're just pointing out where the boundaries inherent to a given form are. Rap lies outside the expressive range of metal, people who try to drag it in can never create anything meaningful, just a jumble of ideas that cannot coexist.

Metal's been effectively mixed with just about every form of music in existence - many of those forms as far from being patently European as possible. I think to figure out the answer as to why metal and rap can't be [successfully] mixed, we have to take a look at what defines rap, as opposed to what defines metal. Is it a legitimate musical style, or is it more about interpretive poetry? I lean towards it being the latter, in which case I really don't see why it couldn't be mixed with metal, since a lot of rap lyrics aren't too different from punk lyrics.

Similarly, no one has suggested that non-whites aren't welcome in metal, the article in question merely suggested that expressive forms whose ideals are alien to those of metal cannot coexist effectively in the same artistic space as metal. You turned an innocent commentary on the limits of artistic communication into some nefarious attempt to keep the darkies out. Grow up.

Hence the idea of -IMPLIED- racism. Even if the article doesn't state that non-whites 'aren't welcome' in metal, the general slant of that paragraph is that metal is 'not for non-whites', which is the same as saying, "Hey, you can listen to metal if you want [if you're black], but it really isn't for you. You're better off sticking to hip-hop, or jazz."

 

[Occam's Razor]

You nailed it.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Way to misinterpret things.

There's only one way to interpret the statement: as a repudiation of the "salvation" offered by Christian belief. It's about a straightforward as lyrics come. Besides, you're still playing a dishonest game, ignoring the content of the vast majority of metal bands and making sweeping statements on the basis of a single song by a single band (a song whose obvious anti-Christian intent you are too stupid to grasp). To deny the pervasive influence of the European warrior-cult ideal and of European notions of honor on the content and outlook of metal is simply ludicrous.

Bullshit. The only ideals early metal bands embraced were alcohol, drugs and rock & roll.

Nevermind the fact that nearly every single band to play the genre has explicitly endorsed such ideals in their lyrics and interviews, right? I know a lot of folks want it to be about entertainment and socialization and nothing more, but that attitude is what is killing metal. Expect less, get less.

Metal's been effectively mixed with just about every form of music in existence

Here are the forms of music which metal has effectively been mixed with:

European folk (speaks for itself)
Classical (European, obviously)
Hardcore/Crust (again, completely European in its origins)
Jazz (a simplified hybrid of black/white blues and early modernist Classical music)
Ambient (again, European)

Only one of these expressive forms is not wholly European in character, but even jazz owes a great deal of its heritage to European music of the early 20th century.

I think to figure out the answer as to why metal and rap can't be [successfully] mixed, we have to take a look at what defines rap, as opposed to what defines metal. Is it a legitimate musical style, or is it more about interpretive poetry?

All spoken or sung lyrical content is "interpretive poetry". The characteristic elements of rap as an artform go beyond interpretive poetry to embrace a purely rhythmic musical form, spoken word vocals delivered in black dialect, and a thematic emphasis on issues of urban (usually black) youth. Strip those elements away, and you might still have "interpretive poetry", but you don't have rap.

Hence the idea of -IMPLIED- racism.

There's no such thing. Racism is an overt process, an explicit ideology. "Implied" racism is a non-sequitur, a jargonistic bogeyman cited by liberals when no racism is present, but outcomes don't match what egalitarian dogma suggests should occur. In this case, the underlying ideals and content of metal do not mesh harmoniously with the values of the dominant cultural paradigm in the black community, nor does the iconography of metal resonate with many people who didn't grow up within a European-oriented cultural matrix. For this reason, metal is largely unappealing to black youth. Result: blacks by and large do not listen to or perform metal. This isn't "implied racism", it's a reality that anyone with an eye toward cultural structures could have predicted, yet here you are attacking someone for openly expressing what should be manifestly obvious, which tells me you are far more interested in perpetuating a political doctrine than in honestly appraising the music or the culture.

 

[Zealotry]

PAHAHAHAHAHA

Wow... You're either totally delusional, or conveniently forgetting a lot of things.

Forget it. I've spoken my piece on this issue.

 

[DBB]

"Honesty" is valued in metal because it is an aspect of honor. Hypocrisy is similarly rejected because it displays a lack of honor. The values metal celebrates (integrity, Will to Power, courage, virility, authenticity etc.) are the values of a peculiarly Indo-European warrior ethos, a "white" conception of honor lies at the center of metal's value system.

I’d be interested to read how you think the “white conception of honor” differs from “black,” “yellow,” “red,” “brown” and “purple” conceptions. I imagine that it would put you in quite the bind, and you will ignore the question or make crass generalizations about Japanese culture (“face” and a network of social relations, suuuuuure, and medieval notions of chivalry or the martial culture of the Junker class had nothing to do with hierarchical social webs or ritualistic observances...for fuck’s sake) that you pulled out of your ass or somewhere off of a sophisticated and genteel version of a ZOG friendly site. Someone has to drink the wine and listen to Beethoven whilst the rabble do the dirty work of racial and ethnic cleansing out on the street, I guess, and you would be one of the elite I assume.

I’m not inserting myself into this debate. I think “Hyperborean Exile” is our old friend Laeth MacLaurie (or a close cousin), and he will confront facts and evidence with narcissistic philosophical obfuscations that are worthless and only good for generating convoluted threads designed to make someone appear to be contradicting themselves--not very honorable at all.

Hence the idea of -IMPLIED- racism. Even if the article doesn't state that non-whites 'aren't welcome' in metal, the general slant of that paragraph is that metal is 'not for non-whites'

Indeed. You only have to glance between the lines--not read--to walk away this impression. I’ve read the editorial in its entirety, and the style, transitions and prose is so muddled and mangled that the paragraph Jim quoted could be construed to not be the main point--but it is one of the primary lessons the author wants the reader to walk away with.

I could wipe my ass and come up with a more coherent editorial though (he provides no examples of this Rock-Bottom Zine claiming to be metal-we are just supposed to assume that this is so because they are covering Omen and King Diamond, which is sloppy), so questions of intent are a bit hard to discern throughout, but as he heads into the home stretch and works himself into a lather, the grand white metal thesis appears, and I believe that this is no coincidence.

Here are a couple of examples of what I would call white supremacist thought instead of racism in the article that are a bit more than implied.

Now here I am going to have to go briefly into why rap and metal cannot coexist. Briefly, it is thus: Rap is about Black People, Metal is about White People. Yes, there are white rappers, and yes, there are black guys who play metal, but 99.99999% of the time, the racial/cultural divide holds true. So if you throw in even a little tiny bit of rap or fucking 'hip-hop', then you are not fucking metal, and you can get out of my pool.

Despite all the fulminating about rap here the thesis of this passage is clear: rap is for blacks and metal is for whites, all blacks are rappers and all whites are metallers, and if you are black you are almost certainly going to bring the rap contagion into my pure, lily-white world, so “you can get out of my pool.” I find the use of the word "pool" to be most revealing here. This is because efforts to desegregate swimming pools were common during the Civil Rights era, and whites (North and South) regarded the mingling of black and white bodies in such an intimate manner to be the most repugnant effects of black attempts to create a society based on equal rights and social justice and became sites of massive resistance--with all the violence and dehumanization that the strategy entailed.

Metal lyrics and themes reflect a European point of view, code of honor, and sense of history....You have South Americans – who are also fascinated by Northern Europe and its heritage....So let's just admit it – metal is white

This is just fucking retarded. If you think for one moment that Latin America has no sense of honor or history and has to turn to Europe for inspiration, then your thoughts are just goddamn ignorant pieces of shit that need to be scraped off a shoe and flushed down the toilet. The natural lesson to be drawn from the equivocating above is that metal is strong in Latin America (the more the better, because I think that this region of the world holds the future of metal in its hands in some ways), so Sargon has to make them honorary Europeans in a derogatory fashion by intimating that the people on this region are only emulating and aping European culture.

Reminds me of Hitler making the Japanese people honorary Aryans (the Japanese were no slouches when it came to ideas about racial superiority during WWII though).

All of these subjects are found in the work of formative metal and proto-metal bands like Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, Judas Priest and Legend. You are simply incorrect. Try again.

Judas Priest venerates the honor and honesty of whites:

Who gives you the right to come here and tell me
I have to leave this place my home
To you it's a jungle, to me it's a kingdom
Where (my) people are free there to roam
Born with the stars we are happy and peaceful
'Til now we were left undisturbed
But you rupture the forests our gardens
And fill them with filth from your cities unheard

Savage, who is savage
Leave your morals, stake your claim
Savage, you are savage
Modern man can take the blame

You poisoned my tribe with civilized progress
Baptizing our blood with disease
You christened our bodies with sadness and suffering
Saying then that your god is well-pleased
What have we done to deserve such injustice
Explain to us please if you can
But you can't, no you can't, we can see it in your eyes
Of us both who's the primitive man

Savage, who is savage
Leave your morals, stake your claim
Savage, you are savage
Modern man can take the blame

You poisoned my tribe with civilized progress
Baptizing our blood with disease
You christened our bodies with sadness and suffering
Saying then that your god is well-pleased
What have we done to deserve such injustice
Explain to us please if you can
But you can't, no you can't, we can see it in your eyes
Of us both who's the primitive man

Savage, savage
Savage, savage
Who's the savage
Modern man
Who's the savage
Modern man

Pete Haworth of Legend talks about the band’s lyrics:

PH: I don't think there's a significant difference between the new lyrics and the old. In fact, a lot of the material from 20 years ago was very contemporary..."Death in the Nursery" (nuclear proliferation), "Frontline" (apartheid in South Africa), "Anthrax Attack" (chemical warfare), "Sabra & Chatila" (Lebanon), "Warrior" (urban gang violence), "Prisoner" (death row). I still write about issues or events that inspire or horrify me and I never know when or where that inspiration will appear. On the new album, for instance, there's a track called "Pompeii" which was inspired by a visit to the ancient city in 2002 and there are also songs about current social issues. The lyrics for the older material follow a similar pattern, ranging from surreal trips into the mind to personal events like the birth of my first daughter ("Open up the Skies" from the Frontline EP). I try not to restrict what I write about as long as I never have to force it.
http://www.hardradio.com/shockwaves/legend3.php3[/b]

You need to try again, because the examples you chose do not fit your false ideological framework!