Another interesting editorial from another site...

[DBB]

Wow... You're either totally delusional, or conveniently forgetting a lot of things.

You nailed it!

 

[Fando]

Despite all the fulminating about rap here the thesis of this passage is clear: rap is for blacks and metal is for whites, all blacks are rappers and all whites are metallers, and if you are black you are almost certainly going to bring the rap contagion into my pure, lily-white world, so “you can get out of my pool.” I find the use of the word "pool" to be most revealing here. This is because efforts to desegregate swimming pools were common during the Civil Rights era, and whites (North and South) regarded the mingling of black and white bodies in such an intimate manner to be the most repugnant effects of black attempts to create a society based on equal rights and social justice and became sites of massive resistance--with all the violence and dehumanization that the strategy entailed.

You’ve pretty much hobbled whatever point you were trying to make here by indulging in such straining undergraduate pap. Liberal armchair pyschology still does not answer the author’s original observation on demographics.

Here is the same point of view put forth in a different article by Sargon:

Rap grew out of the funk sounds of the 60’s and 70’s, and is a reflection of the culture of the black urban environment it grew out of. It was spawned in dance halls, clubs, and house parties, becoming a coherent sound through the age of mass media and carried through because there is no shortage of young performers weaned on the sound.

Metal grew up at the same time, but reflects a very different culture. Really, the popular culture of the 70’s and 80’s. Specifically, the suburban culture so many of us grew up in. Metal comes out of a world of Saturday morning cartoons, Thor comics, horror novels, monster movies, Conan, Godzilla, and posters by Frank Frazetta. Metal is a part of who we are. Metal – and don’t take this the wrong way – makes me proud to be a white guy. Look at where metal is biggest: the US, Canada, Europe, and Japan – the whitest places on earth. (And if you don’t think the Japanese are white, you should hear their honky pop music – you won’t hear any rap on Tokyo radio.)

http://www.metalcrypt.com/pages/editorialsframe.php?editorialid=19

Hyperborean Exile already laid out the reasons why many Black youth are not drawn to metal but we might as well contrast that with why so many White youth are drawn to Hip-Hop. Regardless of its musical value that genre is placated far more by the entertainment industry and survives more on personality than craft, which is naturally ephemeral due to the nature of slang, “Street culture” and the marketability of both. Is it unthinkable or ghastly that Whites could genuinely enjoy this music, no? But adopting culturally black idioms and identities is something that not a few people find to be risible. Where this comes into conflict with metal and what both you and Zealotry have failed to grasp (and the latter explicitly denied) is that metal is both visually and lyrically romanticist in nature and Rap is not. And neither is Emo. And neither is Hardcore.

This is just fucking retarded. If you think for one moment that Latin America has no sense of honor or history and has to turn to Europe for inspiration, then your thoughts are just goddamn ignorant pieces of shit that need to be scraped off a shoe and flushed down the toilet. The natural lesson to be drawn from the equivocating above is that metal is strong in Latin America (the more the better, because I think that this region of the world holds the future of metal in its hands in some ways), so Sargon has to make them honorary Europeans in a derogatory fashion by intimating that the people on this region are only emulating and aping European culture.

Is that what he said? I though he meant that South American metal has lfor many years fallen in step with the Satanic, Teutonic and war-like imagery promulgated by German thrash (And Motorhead) forever. Pictures of Igor Cavalera sporting a swastika object to your outrage over this issue.

http://www.fmp666.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=6255&page=2&pp=10&highlight=sepultura

http://www.fmp666.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=6255&page=4&pp=10&highlight=sepultura

 

[Zealotry]

Heavens, they're multiplying.

Hyperborean Exile already laid out the reasons why many Black youth are not drawn to metal but we might as well contrast that with why so many White youth are drawn to Hip-Hop. Regardless of its musical value that genre is placated far more by the entertainment industry and survives more on personality than craft, which is naturally ephemeral due to the nature of slang, “Street culture” and the marketability of both. Is it unthinkable or ghastly that Whites could genuinely enjoy this music, no? But adopting culturally black idioms and identities is something that not a few people find to be risible. Where this comes into conflict with metal and what both you and Zealotry have failed to grasp (and the latter explicitly denied) is that metal is both visually and lyrically romanticist in nature and Rap is not. And neither is Emo. And neither is Hardcore.

So I'd like to know exactly how much hip hop you silly crackas have listened to that gives you the right to make such enlightened statements.

The entertainment industry is just as loath to deal with literate underground rap as it is literate underground metal.

And besides that, it's been established that at least 70% of those who regularly listen to hip hop are white, anyway. So where's the cultural divide?

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I’d be interested to read how you think the “white conception of honor” differs from “black,” “yellow,” “red,” “brown” and “purple” conceptions.

So you're arguing, despite all evidence, that "honor" is constructed identically in all societies? Foolish, and completely indefensible from a factual standpoint.

I imagine that it would put you in quite the bind, and you will ignore the question or make crass generalizations about Japanese culture (“face” and a network of social relations, suuuuuure, and medieval notions of chivalry or the martial culture of the Junker class had nothing to do with hierarchical social webs or ritualistic observances...for fuck’s sake)

Since, after all, it's a "crass" generalization to accurately summarize Japanese honor codes, but when you reduce Germanic ideals to their secondary concerns, that's not a generalization at all. Hypocrisy, thy name is DBB.

That said, you miss the salient point; while honor in the European tradition is not necessarily free of social or class obligations, these are secondary within that tradition to ethical ideals, honesty, courage, integrity, leadership etc. This is manifestly not the case in East Asian societies where social protocol (as defined by Confucian [Chinese] or Shinto/Zen Buddhist [Japanese] thought) rather than any sort of abstract idealism Semitic cultures offer still another construction, with "honor" being chiefly related to piety. Obviously you see some overlap, but taken in their totality and accounting for differences in emphasis, the divergence of culturally specific honor traditions is fairly obvious. Equally obvious is that metal draws from an honor tradition that is not Asian or African or semitic, but European (and thus "white").

I’m not inserting myself into this debate.

Of course you are, if you weren't, this post wouldn't exist.

and he will confront facts and evidence

What "facts and evidence"? Zealotry's continued insistence (despite its total irrelevance to the question at hand) that "After Forever" is a "Christian" song and that the cult of the warrior didn't exist in metal prior to Maiden (despite enormous evidence to the contrary)? That's not "evidence", it's an argument from ignorance.

worthless and only good for generating convoluted threads designed to make someone appear to be contradicting themselves--not very honorable at all.

Because, after all, it is worthless and "dishonorable" to point out when someone else has backtracked and is trying to pretend that their arguments mean precisely the opposite of what they originally stated (as you tried to do in our last discussion). It's not my fault if those who attempt to debate me cannot maintain a logically coherent thread of argument without contradicting their own previous statements. That is a failure of their argumentation, not my character. Though I must say I'm gratified that you are finally admitting, even if only tacitly, that your arguments in our previous discussions were contradictory.

Indeed. You only have to glance between the lines--not read--to walk away this impression. I’ve read the editorial in its entirety, and the style, transitions and prose is so muddled and mangled that the paragraph Jim quoted could be construed to not be the main point

English is his second language, he manages quite adequately, all things considered.

Despite all the fulminating about rap here the thesis of this passage is clear: rap is for blacks and metal is for whites, all blacks are rappers and all whites are metallers,

Not the content of the quote, but hey, you've never let truth stop you before, so why should it now? The passage cited is abundantly clear; rap and metal emerged from different cultural matrices and are possessed of irreconcilable differences in outlook and worldview, and thus are not suited to the formation of a hybrid form of expression. In assigning bigotry to the author, you read in your own assumptions and prejudices, rather than taking the actual content of the editorial on its own terms.

and if you are black you are almost certainly going to bring the rap contagion into my pure, lily-white world, so “you can get out of my pool.” I find the use of the word "pool" to be most revealing here. This is because efforts to desegregate swimming pools were common during the Civil Rights era,

The author is a French Canadian, jackass. Why should he be expected to be familiar with the particulars of the American civil rights movement? All you accomplish in raising this "point" is to reveal how thoroughly your own assumptions colour your analysis.

This is just fucking retarded. If you think for one moment that Latin America has no sense of honor or history and has to turn to Europe for inspiration, then your thoughts are just goddamn ignorant pieces of shit that need to be scraped off a shoe and flushed down the toilet.

You missed his point entirely, which is that many metal bands in the region show considerable fascination for and make great use of the same Northern European iconography one sees in American and European metal. There is no commentary on the wider culture of South America, just a note that ideals and iconography originating in Northern Europe are prevalent within the South American metal scene.

The natural lesson to be drawn from the equivocating above is that metal is strong in Latin America (the more the better, because I think that this region of the world holds the future of metal in its hands in some ways), so Sargon has to make them honorary Europeans in a derogatory fashion by intimating that the people on this region are only emulating and aping European culture.

Since, after all, there is something wholly derogatory about noting the prevalence of European idealism and iconography in South American metal. Besides, European culture is part of the heritage of the vast majority of Latin Americans. Far from accusing South Americans of "aping" a culture that is not theirs, the author (correctly) identifies them as being among the heirs of European culture, which, incidentally, further undermines your ridiculous "implied racism" theory (after all, few Latin Americans could be called "white" in any conventional racialist sense).

Reminds me of Hitler making the Japanese people honorary Aryans (the Japanese were no slouches when it came to ideas about racial superiority during WWII though).

Looks like Godwin's Law has come into play...

Judas Priest venerates the honor and honesty of whites:

As already noted, the concern of metal artists have consistently shown regarding hypocrisy is itself evidence of the degree to which European constructions of honor, rooted as they are in ethical idealism, permeates metal. You're only strengthening my argument, friend.

Pete Haworth of Legend talks about the band’s lyrics

Wrong band, I'm talking about the Connecticut band that released the legendary (heehee) From the Fjords lp in 1979. Sorry for not making that clear (though it should have been fairly obvious which Legend I was talking about, given my reference to other bands of the 70s and the fact that the discussion was centered at the time on the topic of viking and warrior iconography).

 

[Fando]

So I'd like to know exactly how much hip hop you silly crackas have listened to that gives you the right to make such enlightened statements.

The entertainment industry is just as loath to deal with literate underground rap as it is literate underground metal.

Are you waiting for some arbitrary credentials before you put forward an actual response? Hip-Hop regards itself as a greater collective culture because of its social and economical roots. The difference between Snoop Dog and Common, or for that matter, Brother Ali and Necro, are negligible in regard to this. Furthermore, even as a primarily lyrical genre it’s always favored style over content so “literacy” has little bearing here. I’ll forget the move to turn Tupac into one of our great modern poets, too.

 

[DBB]

Of course you are, if you weren't, this post wouldn't exist.

I meant in a meaningful fashion, you know the drill, where we parse each other’s posts at length and talk past one another for the most part. I will have quite a bit to say about these issues in a few months and you can show up and declare it to be "masturbatory" nonsense and spend hours over the course of many days telling us all why metal is "white," "Indo-European" or whatever other haughty horseshit you want to graft onto it then because the article is such a waste of time and electronic ink. Unfortunately, I really don't have the time right now for anything beyond one lengthy post and a coda.

I will leave you with this nugget: to say that one of the main purposes of that convoluted shit stream of consciousness article is about anything other than proving the sterling, shining whiteness of metal is devious.

This is the bottom line and the primary lesson of the racial and cultural claptrap about rap deployed as a smokescreen contained in the article:

So let's just admit it – metal is white,

Ohhhhhhhhhh...the guilty secret!!! Now we can all finally hold pasty hands and be happy about how we are all as lily white as the fair maidens who never went out into the sunlight because it hurt their eyes and not feel a twinge of that nasty "liberal" remorse or restraint that has made us all shrinking violets.

Ohhhhhhhh...joyous Aryan, Indo-European day of purity, may your approach be swift and your gifts be oh so bounteous!!!!

Horseshit...

It is not about rap or rap and metal--it comes down to whiteness and that is just soft selling a load of fucking exclusionary and supremacist bullshit that stinks to high heaven.

You and your flunkies can dress it up with whatever cultural, philosophical or historical mumbo-jumbo you wish, but the message is that white is good and black is bad, so we need to keep metal white in order to keep it pure and unadulterated.

The simple fact Sargon or any other fucktard who thinks along these insidious lines cannot grasp is that a neighborhood made up of mostly whites or even all whites is not "white"--it is a neighborhood.

 

[Zealotry]

Furthermore, even as a primarily lyrical genre it’s always favored style over content so “literacy” has little bearing here.

This is no less true of metal, or any other form of modern music, than it is of rap.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

You bitch and whine and moan about the "masturbatory" references, but you know, there's a simple way to avoid it; don't ramble needlessly when a straighforward answer will suffice.

For instance, when you mean to say "Shit, I have no actual argument, so I'm going to pretend to grab a little moral high ground before turning tail and running," don't say:

I meant in a meaningful fashion, you know the drill, where we parse each other’s posts at length and talk past one another for the most part. I will have quite a bit to say about these issues in a few months and you can show up and declare it to be "masturbatory" nonsense and spend hours over the course of many days telling us all why metal is "white," "Indo-European" or whatever other haughty horseshit you want to graft onto it then because the article is such a waste of time and electronic ink. Unfortunately, I really don't have the time right now for anything beyond one lengthy post and a coda.

I will leave you with this nugget: to say that one of the main purposes of that convoluted shit stream of consciousness article is about anything other than proving the sterling, shining whiteness of metal is devious.

Let's see, an author posits that metal and rap come from radically different cultural contexts with radically different underlying ideals, thus making them musically incompatible, and you identify "I hate darkies" as the moral of the story. Who is being "devious" again?

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

This is no less true of metal, or any other form of modern music, than it is of rap.

Yes and no. Obviously, the mainstream within any form will tend to represent its most simplified expression, but "literacy" with music goes far beyond lyrical content. Iron Maiden, let alone something like Atheist or Burzum, demands far greater conceptual and musical literacy than any rap artist.

 

[Zealotry]

Yes and no. Obviously, the mainstream within any form will tend to represent its most simplified expression, but "literacy" with music goes far beyond lyrical content. Iron Maiden, let alone something like Atheist or Burzum, demands far greater conceptual and musical literacy than any rap artist.

Now there's a bunch of self-righteous horseshit, if I've ever heard it.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Now there's a bunch of self-righteous horseshit, if I've ever heard it.

How can something that isn't self-referential be "self-righteous"? Rap isn't as complex musically or conceptually as metal, nor does it pretend to be. The question is, why do you care so much?

 

[Occam's Razor]

You cannot compare the complexity of metal to that of rap. Intricate musical structures in rap (talking not about what you hear and see on MTV) are generated differently, i.e. through sampling, electronica, etc. as compared to metal's instrumental craftsmanship. Also, I'd like to hear some metal lyricists pull off the involved rhymes and word flow of some "MCs".

you compare totally opposite things here to find arguments for putting one below the other to satisfy your metal-is-white-pride ideas.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Metal vs rap is irrelevant here.

Both genres do show the worst of humanity. Rap and metal are the sewer drains where human shit flow.

But both genres are also home to genuine artists who show real musical ability and convey real meaning with their work.

Heavy metal speaks to me. Rap doesn't. Rap speaks to plenty of non-blacks (you should see the Scandinavian rappers... I doubt they've been immersed in too much "urban" culture). Metal speaks to plenty of non-whites (counting hispanics and asians in particular as non-whites here).

I don't think heavy metal speaks to me because I have a largely Italian and Polish ancestry.

Our personal tastes have zero to do with the artistic merits of the art forms in general.

Now, if we were to say that heavy metal is predominantly performed by and listened to by white people, I don't think that there would be too much of an argument.

Of course, that could just be a North American/European point of view.

Heavy metal is popular in Japan, to what degree I'm not sure. But I'd be willing to bet that most of the people buying those outrageously expensive albums over there are indeed Japanese. The people going to see all of these touring bands are Japanese. Now, of the Americans that live in Japan will tend to find each other for socialization. (shit, that happens in Finland). Is heavy metal, music of the whities, going to be found in any great concentration in the American or even European communities in Japan? Are there any heavy metal bands formed by non-Japanese in Japan?

Heavy metal is popular in at least certain areas, Mexico and southward. Is heavy metal, music of the whities, going to be found in any great concentration in the American or European communities in this area? Are there any heavy metal bands formed by non-hispanics here?

There is strong racial identity in both the Japanese and Latin American communities. They are not going to be into metal because of a strong "white" or "European" focus.

And did I miss a post, or did nobody catch that the initial editorial implied that Melechesh, a band formed in Israel, played heavy metal because "white Europeans" have been fascinated with Middle-Eastern mythology for a century?

Now, from personal observation and just throwing some thoughts together, minorities in any culture will come together to "preserve" their identity. It is the majority culture that loses its sense of self and individuals don't feel held back by their history or the need to relate to it. Heavy metal is a counter-cultural movement, which is why members of dominant culture will disproportionately participate and also why members of cultural-preservationists, white power types and such, would also gravitate towards it. The revolutionaries are sick of the status quo social order, and the preservationists are sick of the "alien" influences ruining that social order and see little of that in the counter-culture.

It also means the cultural preservationists are missing the entire point of the counter-culture movement in the first place!

Now this could also beg the question of whether wanting to retain "heavy metal" as a firm and not ever-changing description of a certain type of music is analogous to white supremacists/separatists.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

you compare totally opposite things here to find arguments for putting one below the other to satisfy your metal-is-white-pride ideas.

No one is putting rap below metal in some imagined musical hierarchy (unless you are). Metal is more complex musically and conceptually, but complexity isn't what rap aims at, so I don't know why you see this as an attack. It's like I said "You know, painting isn't sculpture" and you replied "Stop putting down painting, you racist." If you spent as much time attending to the music as you do attacking people for things they never said, you too might be able to get it.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Heavy metal is popular in Japan, to what degree I'm not sure.

I ran into virtually no metal fans in the year I was there, but I was in Nagoya and subcultural types in Japan tend to gravitate toward Tokyo and Osaka, so that may explain it. I know that bands touring there do fairly well. I suspect but cannot prove that metal owes a large measure of its success in Japan to tapping the warrior cult latent in the Japanese psyche. Their vision of the warrior is not quite the more European notion typically found in metal, but the ideas are close enough that metal still resonates with the Japanese in a way that most foreign pop music forms simply do not. Metal and (strangely) rockabilly are the only forms that seem to be relatively immune to the almost inconceivable faddishness of Japanese pop culture, at least among the imports.

Are there any heavy metal bands formed by non-Japanese in Japan?

I don't know about that, but Japanese bands have been known more than once to hire American frontmen or lyricists.

Heavy metal is popular in at least certain areas, Mexico and southward. Is heavy metal, music of the whities, going to be found in any great concentration in the American or European communities in this area? Are there any heavy metal bands formed by non-hispanics here?

"White" is used in the editorial as a cultural signifier. The culture of Latin America is European derived, and, while it has indigenous elements, Iberian elements predominate.

There is strong racial identity in both the Japanese and Latin American communities. They are not going to be into metal because of a strong "white" or "European" focus.

But they are very often into metal, I suspect, because elements of the European idealism at the heart of metal resonate with their own cultural ideals (or, in the case of Latin America, because they are heirs in blood and spirit to that European cultural tradition).

And did I miss a post, or did nobody catch that the initial editorial implied that Melechesh, a band formed in Israel, played heavy metal because "white Europeans" have been fascinated with Middle-Eastern mythology for a century?

You're down to arguing exceptions, which misses the point. The reference was obviously to bands like Nile and Demigod, European and American acts exploring Near Eastern mythology. I think it is worth noting that most of these bands are late comers to metal, and generally gimmick bands to boot.

Now, from personal observation and just throwing some thoughts together, minorities in any culture will come together to "preserve" their identity. It is the majority culture that loses its sense of self and individuals don't feel held back by their history or the need to relate to it. Heavy metal is a counter-cultural movement, which is why members of dominant culture will disproportionately participate and also why members of cultural-preservationists, white power types and such, would also gravitate towards it. The revolutionaries are sick of the status quo social order, and the preservationists are sick of the "alien" influences ruining that social order and see little of that in the counter-culture.

It also means the cultural preservationists are missing the entire point of the counter-culture movement in the first place!

There's something to be said for this argument, though I think it discounts the incipient "fascism" (for lack of a better term) that underlies the worldview of metal generally. But there's a clear distinction to be made between a Burzum or a Graveland (who "get it" in every way) and a Grand Belial's Key or any number of shitty NSBM acts bashing out political slogans.

 

[Occam's Razor]

But there's a clear distinction to be made between a Burzum or a Graveland (who "get it" in every way) and a Grand Belial's Key or any number of shitty NSBM acts bashing out political slogans.

The distinction which is?

And there is no inherent "facism" in metal. If you mean the imagery of superiority and "will to power" - that is to be found in many predominantly adolescent subcultures: it is a "they against us"-mentality. To name it "fascism" would be a little exaggerated. At least to me.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

The distinction which is?

That music is art, not propaganda? That there is great value in giving voice to a dream and none in giving voice to the frustrations and failures of jackbooted thugs?

And there is no inherent "facism" in metal. If you mean the imagery of superiority and "will to power" - that is to be found in many predominantly adolescent subcultures

Will to Power, as a definitive concept, exists only within neo-romantic forms at this time (chiefly neofolk, extreme metal and the neoclassical end of the industrial movement, none "adolescent" forms), though it was at one time central to one degree or another to all Western high art.

While I agree that the impulse to favor honor, Will to Power, the warrior ethos, hierarchy of value and personal transcendence (all values central to metal's worldview and conception of itself) over the mass values and egalitarianism of the larger culture is not "fascism" in the sense that it is not a program of political action, nor even an articulated "ideology", but it remains, as I suggested, incipiently fascist in that these are precisely the same generalized ideas that emerged from European Romanticism to crystallize in the 1920s and 30s as "fascism."

 

[Occam's Razor]

That music is art, not propaganda? That there is great value in giving voice to a dream and none in giving voice to the frustrations and failures of jackbooted thugs?

Well, the propaganda is there in Graveland and Burzum as well - even if only implicit, e.g. with the Swastikas on the "Baldur"-cover, plus the picture showing a white with bright hair being killed by distinctively non-Aryan-looking people.


The connection between Romanticism (the period) and fascism/nazism I see in the glorification of an idealized past, in the BM-context often reflected by pagan-ideas and the protagonists pretending to stand in a neat line with their alleged pure-blooded "ancestors" (ever heard of migration even during that time?)

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Well, the propaganda is there in Graveland and Burzum as well - even if only implicit, e.g. with the Swastikas on the "Baldur"-cover, plus the picture showing a white with bright hair being killed by distinctively non-Aryan-looking people.

If you can't distinguish between cover art and the content of the music, I really can't help you. Besides, the painting depicts the annointing of a king by a pagan priestly figure in a mitre bearing not the symbols of Christ, but a life rune (a symbol of the white race in white nationalist iconography). You simply don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You want to tell me the music is not propaganda, while the cover that reflects the music is...

I don't know what I am talking about? - Let's see...
Varg V. in an interview in Muspellheimr Journal #1 in 1998 (translated back from German into English):
"If you look at the cover of 'Daudi Baldrs', you will see that everybody is blonde and blue-eyed except the stranger, the bringer of death."