Are people this stupid?

[Moonlight_Seeker]

One man asks me why the British have such awful teeth.

Well I am in Canada and here it is not free at all to go see the dentist and now I wonder if it is the same in Britain. I heard in Finland it is pretty close to being free, always under 100$ or something, and I wonder if there are many Finns whose front teeth are missing. There are quite a few around here.

And then there is the young woman who likens Britain and Canada to third world countries because of their health systems.

Well I am quite certain there are much more neighborhoods that looks like the 3rd world in the USA then Canada. And I'm not only talking about those neighborhoods that were once terribly hit by a hurricane.

He bravely suggests that all Americans should have access to healthcare.

Not everyone present agrees that it is a "right".

THAT reminds me of the Nazis. If you are unworthy then you will die or suffer for a long time.

This fat and sweaty person looks like Rocky from the Rocky Horror Picture Show got old and fat and angry.


And besides, Obama was not even born in the USA.

And once I was a customer service rep over the phone and sometimes talked to people in the USA and I remember this old lady who was from Texas near the Mexican boarder and she went to Mexico to see the dentist because no dentist wanted to see her because she had filed for bankruptcy... something like that... I remember she went to Mexico for dental care. I love Mexico and Mexicans but I hope I will never have to see a dentist over there.

 

[egan.]

The drummer in my band was just telling me after practice last week about how the health care bill is socialism. This from a guy that is laid off from work living off of unemployment. Perfectly logical?

EXACTLY. The outrage and hatred of socialism rarely extends to medicare, unemployment insurance, bankruptcy laws, social security, or tax incentives for home ownership.

In other words American's are more than happy to take advantage of existing "socialist" programs even if they fear new ones. There aren't many people turning down "socialist" programs when they need them.

One of my favorite quotes so far is "Keep your government hands off my Medicaid!"

We already take measures to cover poor children and old people. I just fail to understand the fear of covering everyone.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Well I am quite certain there are much more neighborhoods that looks like the 3rd world in the USA then Canada.

I know for a fact there are. Take a drive through Detroit.

 

[-Gavin-]

I know for a fact there are. Take a drive through Detroit.

I see your Detroit and raise you Scotland!

 

[egan.]

I definitely think a bare minimum of universal healthcare is a right, but I also feel like people should definitely have the opportunity to purchase better options if they can afford it.

They do exactly that in Canada, much as Fox News would like to pretend they don't. Most nations with Nat'l heathcare have private systems too. Have no fear that the rich will be able to upgrade regardless of what reforms are made.

 

[Line666]

I see your Detroit and raise you Scotland!

Yes and we have free public healthcare, funded by private finance initiatives, what a nonsensical crock of shit that is.

 

[schust]

Have no fear that the rich will be able to upgrade regardless of what reforms are made.

exactly!

meanwhile, the middle class and poor are fucking dying in america because of the high cost of health care (and a million other things). so somebody, Obama, comes along and tries to change it all and just gets major pushback. the same bullshit we've had for 8 years when george jr. was in office. i bunch of nimrods only concerned with their personal politics, egos and wallets. same old, same old.

 

[Uladyne]

Fucking Christians.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

I agree with most of this thread. Half of my country is hopeless and will believe anything to the Right Wingers tell them as long as they get their lower taxes. It's really sickening and it's further evidence that humans are just talking gorillas.

 

[roy22341]

Personally I'm against the health care bill as it sits right now. Go ahead. Flame on!

Does this mean I am against giving everyone in this country a fair shot at receiving proper health care? No.
Does this mean I think that Obama is a socialist? No.
Does this mean I got all my information from Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly? No.

For me, personally I don't trust the people that ran Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to slap together a major health care reform bill in less than 6 months and have it accomplish the things its supposed to.
I don't trust a bunch of people who constantly throw money at problems in hopes of them going away (TARP, Amtrak, US Auto Industry). Sure Medicare is effective, but I don't think I really need to list all the government programs that have failed miserably in recent years.
I don't trust the same people who botched Vietnam, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanisan.
I don't trust the people who are letting Social Security and Medicare go bankrupt while I continue to pay for its inefficiencies without seeing a single benefit from it.

On top of that, and I'm no economist, but facing a severe recession that shows little signs of recovery is probably not the best time to throw an inefficient government into such a large portion of the economy.

This is American politics as usual. You've got one side claiming to be trying to protect us, while the other side is making far out claims that some people will buy into. Meanwhile, the average person continues to throw stereotypes around about socialists, or ignorant Christians, evil rich white people, and poor lazy black people. What it all boils down to is money. Flat out. Insurance companies don't want to see this happen, and I don't blame them. But there's money (and/or votes) to be made on this on both sides of the aisle, and I feel that motivates a majority of these politicians. Welcome to democracy. Its a painful, slow process, but it has brought about some of the greatest advances in human history.

My idea is: Take the time to get this right. Obama's administration feels that if it doesn't get this bill passed as soon as possible support will wane. Well support is waning because a lot of people feel that this reform is a half-assed, slapped together piece of legislation that is poorly thought out and will be poorly executed. Americans reading this undoubtedly know the immense piles of paperwork and confusion that result at tax time - because the IRS is a poorly organized institution. Lets make sure we get health care right so that the people that need it can get it, it can be given in a proper, timely manner, with a minimum amount of bureaucracy (ha! effective government, what an oxymoron), and in a cost effective manner. So far I don't see that coming out of this bill - I see rhetoric on both sides of the debate. Maybe if there were some substance in the debate, and the media (on both sides) were to actually do some research, we could get the people motivated behind a plan that makes sense. Maybe sometime soon we could get a few elected officials that actually read the bills and care about what happens to the people of this country. Maybe sometime soon we could get some people in this country that care about their elected officials and the bills that get passed, rather than tuning into the television looking for fanatical, fake outrage.

End rant. Go ahead and flame me for being a Nazi who wants poor people to die - because that's all I hear back when I speak my opinion on this topic.

 

[iekobrid]

Yeah, I don't get the rush either. I hear the guy complaining, "Obama is trying to systematically dismantle the American way of life", and I think "I wish it were as calm and paced and well thought out as 'systematically' implies".

 

[LeSedna]

I highly recommend this article to all of the US citizens here. You have to register to read it but it factually rebuts many of the silly arguments. It's worth reading regardless of your stance on the issue.

To the non-US guys, there is an obscene amount of fear mongering and misinformation being spread around our country right now. The fact of the matter is that there are many perfectly reasonable things to take issue with in the house and senate bills however none of those are taking center stage b/c they aren't nearly as sensational as completely fallacious "death panels."

There are a lot of impressionable people. The fact that the President's nationality is still debated is the ultimate demonstration of this.

There is also this pervasive notion in the US that we have the best health care system in the world (if you can get it) which of course is pretty far from the truth if you actually look at the numbers.





The US spends the highest percentage of it's GDP on healthcare in the world (around 15% of GDP) and the highest per person spending at around $4200 per person per year.

Here is an OP ed about the "death panels" that was linked from the Consumers Union (consumer reports) website and here is another.

Sorry for the rant.

$4200 per year... Shit, that just sounds so absurd to me.

@Metaltastic, about what you said earlier :

"And I definitely think a bare minimum of universal healthcare is a right, but I also feel like people should definitely have the opportunity to purchase better options if they can afford it (that's the moderate in me balancing both sides, cuz I certainly don't think we should just have one really really good nationalized healthcare system)"

Well maybe I didn't understand it all, but the deal Obama is trying to make doesn't say it will delete the private sector.

I mean, for what I know personnaly (France system), healthcare is CHEAP, everything is covered, even teeth care for youngsters (maybe not at 100% but it is and every f**king teenager does it. I even did it twice for lower teeth!), even when you have an urgency. But there is still the private side. There are private hospitals. Here maybe they are better, but that's not so sure. I guess getting in a private clinic for a pregnant woman will bring her a nicer room, but in the end it's the same. I guess where the difference is important is about special surgery operations, when you need THE surgeon to deal a delicate operation. That's always possible too. There is no obligation. Like for medicines : you always have the choice between : 1/ the normal medic, 2/ the generic one that is THE SAME but 5 times cheaper, 3/ any other one that is supposed to be the same but is not covered

But you know, in France too we have our fools. There are a lot who are against generic medicines because they trust they are less effective. They definitely didn't understand the concept I think there were a study showing that if EVERYONE took generic meds, it would really help the Social Security finances.

I don't see why people are afraid of rationalizing the system, in no way it's written the level will get lower for those who, before, were covered by the health care system. Do they fear the investment will be divided ?

 

[Joematthews]

End rant. Go ahead and flame me for being a Nazi who wants poor people to die - because that's all I hear back when I speak my opinion on this topic.

I don't think people on here would do that, as its clear that you have though a lot about it, and presented a very clear and reasonably balanced opinion on the subject.

I agree with you on the pace, its too fast and he hasn't entirely decided what to do to make the system as effective (and overal as economicly sound) as possible.

The media however has not helped at all though (I don't know what it is like over in the US) because all it does is report that the far right are outraged and show all the foolish behavior and unreasonable far right surporters. Watching the news, they seem to have missed out what was actually in the proposed reform, so the people could see for themselves what will change and how it will effect them and others in the country. Its a shame that the media would rather scaremonger than give people a good understanding of both sides of the political spectrum.

Joe

 

[drew_drummer]

I'd like to point out that British people having bad teeth is a gross stereotype and has no validity. Carry on

 

[Moonlight_Seeker]

End rant. Go ahead and flame me for being a Nazi who wants poor people to die - because that's all I hear back when I speak my opinion on this topic.

I cannot personally do that because, 1st of all you didn't call no one a nazi and 2nd, your post made sense! Governments sucks and are highly ineffective in many aspects. But weren't Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac private companies???

On top of that, and I'm no economist, but facing a severe recession that shows little signs of recovery is probably not the best time to throw an inefficient government into such a large portion of the economy.

I'm no economist either but when a country faces a big recession, the poor people get poorer, and very poor people die younger and are much less healthy and etc. So, for example, this free health care system might be a way to try and prevent a whole lot of bad things happening. And unhealthy people have a harder time getting back on track and getting back the moolah. A healthy population is imperative for a country to really get back on its feet.

That's my theory. Now don't y'all come and steel mine hellth carez!

So, how much is it to "repair" a broken arm when you're uninsured?

 

[lilhermiejobo]

A few years back I had an attack of genius and decided it would be a really good idea to jump off of a moving car. Unknown to myself, but quickly learned, I'm not able to run 35 miles per hour.
To shorten the story a bit... I'm fading in and out of consciousness and recall bits and pieces of a police officer standing over me asking my particulars.......next: I'm laying on my back staring at a light and a female paramedic staring down at me asking me my particulars.......next: I'm laying on my back staring at a big white light wearing a paper gown getting xrays taken from head to toe...next: I'm laying on my back with a couple nurses and my mother standing on each side of me and I'm told that I might feel some pressure. The nurse then puts 3 staples in the left side of my skull a few inches above my ear.
The next thing I remember is getting home to my mother's house and finding a rolled joint in my cigarette case... I was thankful that the police didn't search me or maybe they did and figured I could use the pain meds... either way I enjoyed a nice fat hot leg to myself and tried to forget about the shattered clavicle that was going to give me pain for the next couple of years.
Oh, and I was sober when I jumped from the car, ironically. It was about the only time I had been sober for a few months... go figure.

 

[roy22341]

I don't think people on here would do that, as its clear that you have though a lot about it, and presented a very clear and reasonably balanced opinion on the subject.

Yeah, ha I realize that. I'm just somewhat used to the absurd levels of enthusiasm this topic brings to the table. When I talk to a conservative and tell them my opinion, I'm called a socialist because I believe in universal health care. But when I express my opinions to a liberal, I'm called a right wing nutjob because I don't support the "Change that Obama has brought to Washington."

One thing is for certain though, this is one political topic that gets people interested in the political system and finally caring again. Now if we could just manage to get some focused, fair debates going on, maybe for once we could get something right.

 

[Metaltastic]

Roy, you do indeed make good points, and I'm far too out of the political loop to argue with most of them (and Mat, thanks for the response dude, I was just speaking generally, not implying that privatized health care necessarily was gonna disappear, but it's always cool to read more on the subject confirming it!). However, one thing I did go at a bit was "I don't trust the same people who botched Vietnam, Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanisan." Do you think anyone besides a few janitors is left over from the Vietnam administration? And what exactly did we do in Bosnia? As far as I know it was just a shitload of ethnic cleansing conflicts fueled by a sudden explosion of fierce nationalism in a doomed melting pot of a country My point of all this is just cuz to me it seemed like there was a bit of the attitude of the government being this living entity, when of course it's really just a shitload of people who come and go

 

[egan.]

@roy

I agree with a lot of your points but I think the unfortunate fact of the matter is that you have to factor in political will.
There is a huge rush right now because the fire is stoked and unfortunately time won't give us a more pragmatic, well considered bill but rather one raped by special interests and castrated by corporate lobby-- or the debate will disintegrate all together.

Ideally what you are suggesting would be the case, but if you need proof of my point ask yourself where the healthcare debate has been for the last 15 years (since Hillarycare).

 

[schust]

i don't think anybody would dispute the fact that something of this magnitude should not be rushed. but, as egan has pointed out - when's the last time ANYBODY in Washington made a serious effort to overhaul this extremely ailing system?

i learned recently that health care costs are quickly becoming the #1 reason for backruptcy in the middle class. the "middle class", not the poor. that's pretty serious considering the middle class is what fuels the economy of this country. i'm middle class and thought about it for awhile. if there's anything that would take me down financially, fast, it'd be unexpected healthcare costs. god forbid i'd get some serious disease or someone in my family needed long-term, intensive care. i'd be seriously screwed. why? because i don't work for a huge corporation providing an affordable, comprehensive health plan. i own my own small business and have to have private insurance to cover my family. and of that, i can only afford catasrophic health insurance. it's amazingly high, in turn for just about nothing - and goes up about $100 every year. the other issue is there are tons of loop-holes strategically placed throughout the policy to prevent the insurance company from ever having to pay too much - EVEN IN A CATASROPHIC SITUATION.

the economy sucks right now, but there is promise on the horizon. having said that, though - there are a lot of people that are really struggling finanically and health care costs are a big part of it. nothing that comes out of Washington is ever right 100%, right out of the gate - whether they spent 2yrs or 2 weeks on it. i say the situation warrants immediate attention and whatever they can do to "start" the ball rolling is a good thing. i applaud Obama for taking it on. he could have been like his predecessor and just ignored the whole thing even though everybody knows it's the big white elephant looming about the room.