attn: motw fans re: new album

[YaYo]

I wouldnt want to hear these anyway, maybe i'd like to hear them after i've heard the final album.

I've only recorded demos so far, but its amazing how some songs just dont sound even remotely good until they are 100% complete. Indeed for me that's part of the process, when i listen to an incomplete demo and it sounds terrible and nowhere near to the standard of previous demos i know i just have to continue and that somehow magically by the end everything sounds good!

 

[FalseTodd]

Being on a web server (unmarked) or on a CD in your house, bottom line, they were taken without permission, and that's pretty low from a "fan".

OK, even an equivocated rape analogy is totally out-of-line here. Honestly the day, the very same day that this happened a friend of mine said, "oh hey, I'm listening to roughs of the new Metallica album right now, here's where they are on the internet." Of course I went and grabbed them. I know certain people (a very large number of people and myself included) have a pre-release of the new Radiohead album. So let's not get all high-horse about this.

I will reiterate that I would like to thank Organic for being as discreet as he was with what he found. I'm not sure I would have in his situation. Badgering him, and coming almost to the point of calling him some fairly serious names, is not a constructive thing to do. And calling him a bad fan or whatever is way off the mark, he clearly is invested enough in the band to randomly type in mp3 names. I don't mean to give him a big pat on the back for finding this stuff, I wish he hadn't, but he's not a fucking rapist. Jeepers.

I think the bedroom window analogy is a bad one. Bedrooms are private property; shared folders on an internet server with a registered domain name are not. They're shared. You set the permission to "Everybody Read". True they were "hidden" in that there was no external reference to them anywhere, but perhaps a better analogy is leaving them in the grass outside your house. They're on public property, and anybody with a little ingenuity could find them if they took the time to look and had it in their head they were there.

And they shouldn't have been there. It would be nice to think that we can all leave our stuff out on the sidewalk and expect it to be there when we come back, but we can't. When was the last time you saw a dollar on the sidewalk and didn't pick it up?

Bottom line for me is: We left something sitting around we shouldn't have, and Organic snooped a bit and found it. Everybody's a little at fault, but get off the guy's back and can the moral highground.

 

[Firedwarf]

Now to make this fair, you need to share all those mp3's with the rest of us... or.... or.... or i'll post all of the roughs of Eric!

All kidding aside, I agree with toby 100%. Only difference is, i'd be on a plane, on my way to fuck em up. You're right when saying "it feels like the equivalent of if you walked by my bedroom window, saw a CD on my desk marked "new roughs", came into the house through an unlocked door, and copied the CD." People don't realize, unless you write and record music, how much of yourself goes into this, and in your mind, it has to be "worthy" for people to hear. Even posting about it, and saying sorry, and confessing to doing it doesnt make it right. That's like saying "She was dressed like a slut, so she deserved to be raped". When people confess to a crime, and say "sorry", they still pay the price. Now, this isnt the same as a murder, or a rape, BUT, to the band, and Toby, it may as well be, because this material is personal to them. Being on a web server (unmarked) or on a CD in your house, bottom line, they were taken without permission, and that's pretty low from a "fan".

Dude, what more do you want from him?

According to him, he didn't even know what he was doing.

And on top of that, he swears on his honor that the roughs will NOT be shared with anyone past those four other people.

AND he apologized.

Seriously. Forgive and forget, man.

I'll just add this too, even if it is a blow to idealism: if you don't want people to have something, then don't put it up on a public server. PERIOD. Since when do you need permission to download from a PUBLIC SERVER? How long would it have taken you to put it on a private FTP? If it bothers you guys that much.. sorry if I came off as an asshole, I'm just putting in my two cents.

And I love Maudlin of the Well, so.

 

[Firedwarf]

OK, even an equivocated rape analogy is totally out-of-line here. Honestly the day, the very same day that this happened a friend of mine said, "oh hey, I'm listening to roughs of the new Metallica album right now, here's where they are on the internet." Of course I went and grabbed them. I know certain people (a very large number of people and myself included) have a pre-release of the new Radiohead album. So let's not get all high-horse about this.

I will reiterate that I would like to thank Organic for being as discreet as he was with what he found. I'm not sure I would have in his situation. Badgering him, and coming almost to the point of calling him some fairly serious names, is not a constructive thing to do. And calling him a bad fan or whatever is way off the mark, he clearly is invested enough in the band to randomly type in mp3 names. I don't mean to give him a big pat on the back for finding this stuff, I wish he hadn't, but he's not a fucking rapist. Jeepers.

I think the bedroom window analogy is a bad one. Bedrooms are private property; shared folders on an internet server with a registered domain name are not. They're shared. You set the permission to "Everybody Read". True they were "hidden" in that there was no external reference to them anywhere, but perhaps a better analogy is leaving them in the grass outside your house. They're on public property, and anybody with a little ingenuity could find them if they took the time to look and had it in their head they were there.

And they shouldn't have been there. It would be nice to think that we can all leave our stuff out on the sidewalk and expect it to be there when we come back, but we can't. When was the last time you saw a dollar on the sidewalk and didn't pick it up?

Bottom line for me is: We left something sitting around we shouldn't have, and Organic snooped a bit and found it. Everybody's a little at fault, but get off the guy's back and can the moral highground.

I agree completely.

He isn't any less of a "fan" because of what he did.

Learn from your mistake and move on. ^_^

 

[Xtokalon]

Gentlemen! A 20 second excerpt from the new motW:

www.boomspeed.com/xtokalon1/Wayfarer.mp3

 

[Paragon Belial]

That was two lies in one sentence.

1. It was not motW.
2. It was 27 seconds long.

I feel violated.

 

[Novembers Paul]

OK, even an equivocated rape analogy is totally out-of-line here. Honestly the day, the very same day that this happened a friend of mine said, "oh hey, I'm listening to roughs of the new Metallica album right now, here's where they are on the internet." Of course I went and grabbed them. I know certain people (a very large number of people and myself included) have a pre-release of the new Radiohead album. So let's not get all high-horse about this.

I will reiterate that I would like to thank Organic for being as discreet as he was with what he found. I'm not sure I would have in his situation. Badgering him, and coming almost to the point of calling him some fairly serious names, is not a constructive thing to do. And calling him a bad fan or whatever is way off the mark, he clearly is invested enough in the band to randomly type in mp3 names. I don't mean to give him a big pat on the back for finding this stuff, I wish he hadn't, but he's not a fucking rapist. Jeepers.

I think the bedroom window analogy is a bad one. Bedrooms are private property; shared folders on an internet server with a registered domain name are not. They're shared. You set the permission to "Everybody Read". True they were "hidden" in that there was no external reference to them anywhere, but perhaps a better analogy is leaving them in the grass outside your house. They're on public property, and anybody with a little ingenuity could find them if they took the time to look and had it in their head they were there.

And they shouldn't have been there. It would be nice to think that we can all leave our stuff out on the sidewalk and expect it to be there when we come back, but we can't. When was the last time you saw a dollar on the sidewalk and didn't pick it up?

Bottom line for me is: We left something sitting around we shouldn't have, and Organic snooped a bit and found it. Everybody's a little at fault, but get off the guy's back and can the moral highground.

This is just where you and I differ. It's a bit different to compare a band like Metallica and leaked mp3's of roughs. You're comparing, quite possibly the biggest band in the world to this. Once you reach a certain level of popularity, you need to expect this kind of thing, and tighten up your security, if it bothered you that much. Or even a pre-release of a CD. At least the pre-release was finished to the bands specifications. And this is not just about the honesty of the guy who did this. You have an admitted 4 other people to worry about, that all you have to go on, is the thiefs word, that they are trust worthy? Yeah. Im glad it's not my shit.

I don't think I ever called him a BAD fan. But, did he take something, that wasnt posted publically, without permission? Yes he did. Did he turn around and give it to 4 friends? Yes he did. Maybe this is cool with you, because, in your words "I'm not sure I would have in his situation." But I stand by the rape analogy. Just becasue it's there, doesn't give you the right to just "take" it, when you KNOW that the outcome will hurt someone.

As far as canning my "moral highground", maybe I just take my music more personally and seriously then you do. I wasn't trying to be "Mr Morals" either. I was stating a point, that if were me that this happened to, I wouldn't be defending his stupidity. As a matter of fact, i'm not even sure why this bothers me at all. If you're "ok" with it, that's all that really matters here. I guess I appologize then for getting upset when a labelmate, and musician got his material leaked, before the songs were complete.

 

[FuSoYa]

I didn't say my feelings on the situation reflected absolute objectivity, but it's still the way I feel. I'm upset about it for a number of reasons.

 

[FuSoYa]

(that was directed to mr. falsetodd there)

 

[Novembers Paul]

Dude, what more do you want from him?

According to him, he didn't even know what he was doing.

And on top of that, he swears on his honor that the roughs will NOT be shared with anyone past those four other people.

AND he apologized.

Seriously. Forgive and forget, man.

I'll just add this too, even if it is a blow to idealism: if you don't want people to have something, then don't put it up on a public server. PERIOD. Since when do you need permission to download from a PUBLIC SERVER? How long would it have taken you to put it on a private FTP? If it bothers you guys that much.. sorry if I came off as an asshole, I'm just putting in my two cents.

And I love Maudlin of the Well, so.

I don't want a thing from him. It's not my band, and it's not my problem. This is between him, Maudlin of the Well, and possibly the label if these mp3's leak out further.

He didn't know what he ws doing? He clicked the mouse once or twice, and *poof*, the mp3's appeared on his desktop? Hmmm..

Hey, seriously, i feel badly for everyone in this situation. Im not trying to be a dick either, but I know how upset I would be if this were me.

 

[FuSoYa]

Yeah, I am just upset. I don't wish any harm upon the offending parties at all.

It raises an interesting question though- as a fan of a band, how far does one's respect actually extend? I mean basically- when you like a band, does your like for them end at self-pleasure, or in other words, as long as you get some good tunes, you're happy? Or, does it go even further to the point where you respect the actual artist, and care if the artist is hurt in any way by your actions?

Do you have only a selfish interest in your own pleasure, or do you wish to be a positive part of artistic society (as opposed to a detriment)?

If Radiohead issued a press release saying 'please don't listen to the leaked tracks', you bet I wouldn't. Of course they are also a rich and famous band so it affects them very differently than it does a band like us.

 

[Novembers Paul]

Yeah, I am just upset. I don't wish any harm upon the offending parties at all.

It raises an interesting question though- as a fan of a band, how far does one's respect actually extend? I mean basically- when you like a band, does your like for them end at self-pleasure, or in other words, as long as you get some good tunes, you're happy? Or, does it go even further to the point where you respect the actual artist, and care if the artist is hurt in any way by your actions?

Do you have only a selfish interest in your own pleasure, or do you wish to be a positive part of artistic society (as opposed to a detriment)?

If Radiohead issued a press release saying 'please don't listen to the leaked tracks', you bet I wouldn't. Of course they are also a rich and famous band so it affects them very differently than it does a band like us.

Here's an example for you... Andy from My Dying Bride has sent me a burn copy of the past 4 CD's of theirs, as soon as they get out of the studio, because he trusts that I would not leak this material, and I keep it to myself. I wouldnt even make copies for my own band when they asked, becasue I RESPECT the musicians, and what they put into it. If I were to stumble across material of theirs, that were not ment to be spread, and if they came into my possesion, I would keep them to myself, for my own self pleasure. I would certainly NOT email them to friends. Thats why i made the "fan" comment. As a FAN of the band, i have respect for the band. It's not a moral issue, it's about mutual respect. Maybe this is because I know how sersiously we take our music, and i know you Toby, take your music very seriously, and it really saddens me the know that people don't share the same respect for the material. I mean, shit, if you find it, keep it to yourself! Don't spread it wround, when you must KNOW that band doesnt want it out there like that, otherwise there would be a link involved.

I need to just stop talking about this situation. hahah

 

[Firedwarf]

I don't want a thing from him. It's not my band, and it's not my problem. This is between him, Maudlin of the Well, and possibly the label if these mp3's leak out further.

He didn't know what he ws doing? He clicked the mouse once or twice, and *poof*, the mp3's appeared on his desktop? Hmmm..

Hey, seriously, i feel badly for everyone in this situation. Im not trying to be a dick either, but I know how upset I would be if this were me.

What I meant was that it doesn't seem that he was found the first one by accident. Did you read his side of the story?

Really though, it doesn't seem that any more harm is being done and I think we should all forget about it and be more cautious in the future.

 

[Ominous Luminous]

What basically happened was I had downloaded another, more legit MP3 on the motW website, and then, in the heat of boredom, decided to change the MP3 name to antique.mp3, which was the song of the new album which I had seen performed at ProgWest.

What exactly is a maudlin of the well fan doing downloading a legit song from the site to begin with? Shouldn't someone who is a fan already have the legit song in the form of an album? I guess what I am asking is, was the original legit song a demo song, or something from one of the albums? I'm not saying that you can't be a fan just based on a show that you saw them at, I'm just pointing out how fishy this story sounds.
As if my opinion matters.

 

[YaYo]

What exactly is a maudlin of the well fan doing downloading a legit song from the site to begin with? Shouldn't someone who is a fan already have the legit song in the form of an album? I guess what I am asking is, was the original legit song a demo song, or something from one of the albums? I'm not saying that you can't be a fan just based on a show that you saw them at, I'm just pointing out how fishy this story sounds.
As if my opinion matters.

uh, motw do have 3 albums, its not like you have to own all of them to call yourself a fan.

 

[Ominous Luminous]

Quite aware of this fact thank you. If you read my post again you will see that I clearly said

I'm not saying that you can't be a fan just based on a show that you saw them at, I'm just pointing out how fishy this story sounds.

 

[Static]

Yeah, I am just upset. I don't wish any harm upon the offending parties at all.

It raises an interesting question though- as a fan of a band, how far does one's respect actually extend? I mean basically- when you like a band, does your like for them end at self-pleasure, or in other words, as long as you get some good tunes, you're happy? Or, does it go even further to the point where you respect the actual artist, and care if the artist is hurt in any way by your actions?

Do you have only a selfish interest in your own pleasure, or do you wish to be a positive part of artistic society (as opposed to a detriment)?

If Radiohead issued a press release saying 'please don't listen to the leaked tracks', you bet I wouldn't. Of course they are also a rich and famous band so it affects them very differently than it does a band like us.

Ermmm...I've read various interviews with Radiohead in which they condemn the leaked tracks and state their disappointment in those who listen to them.

I have the leaked tracks, I listen to them...the band doesn't like it. Am I a fan? Fuck yeah I am. Will I buy the actual album? Fuck yes I will.

For me, its like this...if I respect the band I will buy their album, for artists I *like* but don't enjoy as much, I will most likely not buy their album and just burn mp3s. I know, that makes me an asshole because I totally rip off many bands, but with bands like Opeth, Radiohead, or Maudlin of the Well, all of which I greatly respect, I will do my best to find and buy their albums.

I guess I'm just very picky, it takes alot for a band to gain my actual *respect* as opposed to mere enjoyment. Opeth, Maudlin of the Well, Radiohead, King Crimson, Ulver, Porcupine Tree, and others are ones I would always do my best never to rip off.

 

[FalseTodd]

I stand by the rape analogy...

I was responding to the vehemance with which this guy was attacked, which I think was unwarranted. The reason I said what I said is because making analogies to truly heinous crimes is ridiculous. If you want to stand next to a rape victim and honestly say that the time someone heard your album before it was done can even exist on the same scale as her experience...


I'm not saying it didn't upset me, I'm not saying it was "ok", and I'm not saying that I think it was a good thing to do, I'm just being realistic. Toby knows what my initial reaction was: "FUCK." I very much wish he hadn't done it.

 

[FalseTodd]

Of course they are also a rich and famous band so it affects them very differently than it does a band like us.

I really don't understand why this makes any difference at all. From the standpoint of record sales it makes sense (hearing rough mix gives bad impression = people not buying the album, which is more harmful to small band than big band) but the entire discussion up until this point has been about respect for the artist, which ought to transcend money stuff I should think. (OK, OK respect for the artist can include financial support, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here).

I agree that finding and listening to rough mixes does a disservice to both artist and listener, but why does a person listening to Radiohead or Metallica roughs represent less disrespect than listening to motW roughs? Now that they're big and famous they no longer deserve the same type of deferential treatment?

 

[Kazoo]

Hey guys, it's Kazoo, the guy who introduced himself and never came back!

Well, I'm one of the 4 people that Organic told about the demos. He was very explicit in that he didn't want me to tell anyone else about it or share it in my shared folders and whatnot... And he just informed me about the problem here, and told me to erase any of the stuff I had.... but I only listened to the one link he gave me (for The Antique), and I didn't even save it to my computer... I just listened to it a few times in the media player that opens those types of links in MSN Explorer, then just closed it when I had enough. I apologize for being a part of all of this, though.

If my opinion matters: I thinks it's very reasonable for a person like me (as in jobless) to be a fan of a band and not own all the albums. MotW has been among my favorite bands for a while now, but I only just recently ordered some of your CDs due to being a broke bastard most of the time. (By the way Toby, this is Randall in MI that recently ordered from you... The compensation was more than enough! I was pleasantly surprised!)... I may have had most of the songs on mp3's, but once I had the money I got the albums. It's less of a big deal to me with more mainstream bands, but even then I still like to support them when possible. Damn morals.

Eh... Well, what little I heard sounded good, guys. I'm definitely looking forward to the album. And that clip of Wayfarer up there.... Pure genius! You sure have evolved quite a bit since your last material!