AWFUL news from the Gulf.

Cyanide_Anima said:
we don't need a medium of exchange, that is part of the problem. people will always want more 'money' because its finite, its scarce. there will be hoarding and fighting over it, empire, etc.
Click to expand...

PostMortem1666 said:
2)A "Corruption Generating" Incentive System.
Click to expand...

AKA greed, yes?

It's this same 'greed' or hoarding and fighting over resources that cause things like innovation, invention, improvements to goods and services, things that people wouldn't do unless they had an incentive to.

I really don't think Bill Gates isn't going to start Microsoft for the 'good of mankind,' and even if you want to argue that he is, suddenly he's got a gigantic monopoly because of a completely lack of competition, and we've got a shitload of other problems on our hands.

What do you really propose we do instead of use a medium of exchange? Someone seriously explain to me a viable alternative? Who is going to step up and organize this all with absolutely zero bias and want for attention/payment?

We're all human - we're all fucked up, greedy, thieving, murderous creatures, and until some miraculous scientific discovery (which will no doubt be the product of greed and competition) changes things, we will always be competing against others for limited resources.

Disagree? Like I said before - you will be the very first to be completely raped, pillaged, and left for dead while someone else enjoys 'your share.'


I'm not saying that things are perfect, good, or even near workable - I'm just saying... give me a viable alternative, and I will listen. List a bunch of problems and give no viable solution, and you're just getting in my way.
 
It is often said that the competitive marketplace creates the incentive to act for the sake of social progress. While this is partially true, it also generates an equal if not more pronounced amount of corruption in the form of planned obsolescence, common crime, wars, large scale financial fraud, slave labor and many other issues. Well over 90% of the people in prisons are there because of monetary related crime or non-violent drug offenses. The majority of legislation exists in the context of monetary based crimes. Also, if one is to critically examine history and peer into the documented biographies/mentalities of the greatest scientists and inventors of our time, such a N. Tesla, A. Einstein, A. Bell, the Wright Brothers, and many others - it is found that they did not find their motivation in the prospect of monetary gain.
The interest to make money must not be confused with the interest to create socially beneficial products.

A viable alternative (maybe the only one) would be a resource based economy.
 
And who would provide these resources? And what benefit would they derive from providing them to you, me or anyone besides themselves? True altruism doesn't exist.
 
Are you serious? Tesla through a BITCH FIT after Edison screwed him over! And the Wright Brothers? Their goal was to fly, period - it was someone else's to actually make flying a viable form of transportation.

PostMortem1666 said:
A viable alternative (maybe the only one) would be a resource based economy.
Click to expand...

Are you trying to legitimately pass this Venus Project stuff off as a viable alternative to our current economy?

Holding all the world's resources as common wealth just won't work - who's gonna get it out? Who's going to process it? Who's going to drive it around, distribute it, market it, do anything but consume it? Those things are all where we get our current market economy - the world's resources are essentially free-game as is, and we pay people to produce things using them. The same process is required in both systems.

I like your optimism, but let's be realistic here.

roy22341 said:
And who would provide these resources? And what benefit would they derive from providing them to you, me or anyone besides themselves? True altruism doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the problem.
 
logical fallacy overload. jeff, your arguments come from ignorance, misunderstanding, or not even being willing to legitimately look at alternatives. the venus project isn't the only solution, but it is a good one if you actually take an honest look at fresco's work. if all you can come up with are straw man arguments, i think you need to read more. and tesla was trying to make free energy, he wanted that money to make a tower to test out his wireless method of power transmission (which worked). he wanted to help humanity, but edison fucked him over. can you believe edison even ran campaigns saying how AC power was shit, too dangerous to use and never going to go anywhere, and how DC was vastly superior?

"We're all human - we're all fucked up, greedy, thieving, murderous creatures, and until some miraculous scientific discovery (which will no doubt be the product of greed and competition) changes things, we will always be competing against others for limited resources."

people are just born naturally greedy? really? i had no idea. we are taught the incentive of money. when i was a kid I wanted to be an astronomer because I loved the stars, planets and the Sun. When I came to realize it was going to be extremely difficult (money) for me to pursue my dreams, I was devastated. People tell you to find a "high paying job" or "one you can stand" because they are mostly repetitive. no one cares about actually making a contribution to society anymore, its all about making shitty products that do not last.

I hate the word utopia, the baggage associated with that word, and the fact its used more as a pejorative term more than anything renders it "bad" or just the thoughts of a dreamer. yet it's what everyone (mostly) would want.
 
Cyanide_Anima said:
logical fallacy overload. jeff, your arguments come from ignorance, misunderstanding, or not even being willing to legitimately look at alternatives. the venus project isn't the only solution, but it is a good one if you actually take an honest look at fresco's work. if all you can come up with are straw man arguments, i think you need to read more. and tesla was trying to make free energy, he wanted that money to make a tower to test out his wireless method of power transmission (which worked). he wanted to help humanity, but edison fucked him over. can you believe edison even ran campaigns saying how AC power was shit, too dangerous to use and never going to go anywhere, and how DC was vastly superior?

"We're all human - we're all fucked up, greedy, thieving, murderous creatures, and until some miraculous scientific discovery (which will no doubt be the product of greed and competition) changes things, we will always be competing against others for limited resources."

people are just born naturally greedy? really? i had no idea. we are taught the incentive of money. when i was a kid I wanted to be an astronomer because I loved the stars, planets and the Sun. When I came to realize it was going to be extremely difficult (money) for me to pursue my dreams, I was devastated. People tell you to find a "high paying job" or "one you can stand" because they are mostly repetitive. no one cares about actually making a contribution to society anymore, its all about making shitty products that do not last.

I hate the word utopia, the baggage associated with that word, and the fact its used more as a pejorative term more than anything renders it "bad" or just the thoughts of a dreamer. yet it's what everyone (mostly) would want.
Click to expand...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Things are getting hectic around here.
I am surrounded by guys who work on rigs out in the Gulf, folks who shrimp for a living, and folks who do other stuff on the coast.
They're pretty stressed out about all this.
 
I really dig obama's speech the other day. he even stated the necessity to move beyond fossil fuels, as the earth cannot sustain it. you can tell he was still holding his tongue a bit, as if he were to state his true position which appears to be more enviornmentally friendly, he'd be ridiculed. which he probably would. "this commie is saying that people are bad, that we are evil!". he's gotta be less afraid about what the ideologs would say. rofl. I sure hope this top kill plan works. i'd like to go to mississippi delta some day and flog around in the marshes, hopefully gunk-free.
 
Cyanide_Anima said:
I really dig obama's speech the other day. he even stated the necessity to move beyond fossil fuels, as the earth cannot sustain it. you can tell he was still holding his tongue a bit, as if he were to state his true position which appears to be more enviornmentally friendly, he'd be ridiculed. which he probably would. "this commie is saying that people are bad, that we are evil!". he's gotta be less afraid about what the ideologs would say. rofl. I sure hope this top kill plan works. i'd like to go to mississippi delta some day and flog around in the marshes, hopefully gunk-free.
Click to expand...

Or maybe he was just remembering all his campaign contributions from all the major oil companies - BP included.
 
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