Bal-Sagoth @ HCII

[General Zod]

Did anyone stay for their performance? If so, how were they? I'm curious, what percentage of the crowd left or was disinterested?

Zod

 

[skyrefuge]

What, you didn't read my awesome review?

Anyway, to expand upon that, I was totally expecting the ProgPowerUSA "Rage effect": people would manage to survive through Skyforger's set, but then flood out after that. I thought it would even worse than the PPUSA version, because the day had been going on nearly twice as long, and there was no (general) seating. Also, I'd already heard several people who planned on leaving (the RC-crew), and Bal-Sagoth's brand of "Heathen" is a bit different than most of the other bands'. So the signs were not good. In fact, as a non-Bal-Sagoth fan, the only reason I stuck around myself was out of a sense of duty to not abandon the poor headliner.

So I was quite surprised when they held on to nearly all of Skyforger's audience (who was the largest draw of the fest, in my estimation). I was pretty far back in the crowd, and there were guys around me faithfully yelling out lyrics and ridiculously long song titles, so I didn't really notice anyone who was disinterested. Except me. So I figured they'd be able to manage without me.

Afterwards, I realized I'd failed to note two things that makes the average HC attendee different from the average PPUSA attendee:

1. He is more open-minded to stuff he's not intensely familiar with.
2. He is not an old man.

I think that's what helped Bal-Sagoth keep the crowd, and plus, there might have been a bunch of people there just to see them (maybe the one-day ticket option helps with that).

Neil

 

[Dark One]

Yep. While it was a bad headliner for myself and most of the RC crew, it seems like it wasn't a bad headliner for the festival as a whole.

BTW, that pic you shared of the lead singer is bad ass.

Jason

 

[AsModEe]

well it's cool and all, but you didn't give any information about HOW they performed?

 

[Sanctums]

For me, Bal-Sagoth was the least enjoyable of all the headliners. I don't think they make for a very good live band at all.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

we left after the first song and I was fucking pooped
the keys werent loud enough and the vocals were way loud

 

[JayKeeley]

1. He is more open-minded to stuff he's not intensely familiar with.

I learned an important lesson at HC2 which was not to write any band off before seeing them live on stage. I was quite amazed at how bands like Obtest and Skyforger were able to put on a great show and win me over. (I wasn't familiar with their material beforehand, or certainly didn't give it much of a chance and thought of them to be 'expendable').

To add, bands that I was previously familiar with (e.g. Rudra and Vreid) performed even better than I could have imagined. And how ironic that the one traditional metal band, Slough Feg, became the "odd ball" and yet won so many 'extreme metal' fans over.

The fact that Mael Mordha were my favorite band of the weekend just sums up the entire event. Hadn't heard a single note from this band and yet they stole the show. As with Primordial the year before, it wasn't just the music, but the entire performance. It was like going to war.

So I think my point here is that, in my opinion, Pagan/Heathen/Celtic/Folk metal tends to work really well in a live setting, and probably better live than on CD. For me, the bands can convey much more emotion in front of a crowd than they can in a studio. I refer to that call to battle, the anguished screams, the horns of war, the intensity and the barrage, the fists raised, the ambient folk interludes intertwined with the murderous viking riffs...

In contrast to power/prog bands, what you hear live on stage is pretty similar to what you're hearing on CD. Sometimes it's worse, just because it's difficult to capture that same studio sound of 100 guitar tracks, multiple vocal harmonies, the gleam, the polish, etc. And to be completely fair, clean vocals have to be spot on pitch perfect. I suppose you can be much more forgiving with growls and screams not being up to scratch.

 

[Will Bozarth]

didnt read the thread... buuuut I wasn't impressed.

 

[General Zod]

So I was quite surprised when they held on to nearly all of Skyforger's audience (who was the largest draw of the fest, in my estimation).

I'm surprised they held on to the audience (and I'm surprised Skyforger was the biggest draw).

Afterwards, I realized I'd failed to note two things that makes the average HC attendee different from the average PPUSA attendee:

1. He is more open-minded to stuff he's not intensely familiar with.

I disagree. First off, stating one sub-genre's fans exhibit one behavior and a second sub-genre's fans exhibit a second, is the type of generalization that has no basis in fact. To the contrary, the theme of HC is singular, while ProgPower brings together two different sub-genres.

2. He is not an old man.

The age of the average attendee at PP has nothing to do with attendance for the last band. Evergrey closed the entire PP festival last year, with a two hour set, and didn't lose a soul. The "Rage effect" is less an overall phenomenon that effects PP, and more about the fact that Rage simply isn't that popular and has zero cross-over appeal. I know I, for one, was shocked when they were announced as a headliner. They create almost zero buzz on any of the forums I frequent.

Zod

 

[War Ensemble]

I was there for the whole Bal Sagoth set. They had some problems with the vocal effects and the keyboards needed to be louder. I enjoyed them. There were other people that were really into them.

 

[skyrefuge]

well it's cool and all, but you didn't give any information about HOW they performed?

They plugged their instruments into amplifiers and stood on the stage. One guy pushed the black and white levers on his keyboard, two guys vibrated the strings on their stringed instruments, one guy whacked his drums with wooden sticks and mallets, and one guy held a microphone in front of his mouth and made noises into it. That's pretty much how they performed, as far as I could tell.

Ok, sorry, that was a smart-ass response. To know how well I thought they performed, read my original review.

Ok, sorry, that was a smart-ass response too. But it *is* pretty much all there in my original review. I thought they were boring, except for when the dude talked and went "HA HA HA HA...." However, I've never been able to get into them on disc either, so I'm probably not the best judge. Performance-wise, they were a group of motionless, large-faced, pasty-skinned Englishmen, so there wasn't a lot to see. But like I said, it seemed like other people were diggin' 'em, so there's that.

Neil

 

[EricT]

I enjoyed it to an extent... Skyforger and Rudra were really tough acts to follow though, and Bal-Sagoth just didn't 'bring it' like they did.

 

[skyrefuge]

So I think my point here is that, in my opinion, Pagan/Heathen/Celtic/Folk metal tends to work really well in a live setting

I concur.

For me, the bands can convey much more emotion in front of a crowd than they can in a studio. I refer to that call to battle, the anguished screams, the horns of war, the intensity and the barrage, the fists raised, the ambient folk interludes intertwined with the murderous viking riffs...

Ok, I was just gonna say "it's because they've got simple rhythms you can bang your head to and simple melodies that catch your ear", but your version is better.

And to be completely fair, clean vocals have to be spot on pitch perfect. I suppose you can be much more forgiving with growls and screams not being up to scratch.

Yeah, while I'm not quite ready to say that there's some fundamental difference between prog/power metal and "heathen" metal in the live setting, it probably does make a difference that prog/power metal is hugely-dependent on the vocal, whereas with "heathen" metal, the components are more balanced, so the risk isn't as concentrated in one area.

But it was attending Lollapalooza last August that got me on my latest concert-going kick (from Lollapalooza through Heathen Crusade, I saw 22 concerts with sets from 75 bands), where I had an almost identical experience: I saw a lot of bands I was only marginally-familiar with, and I came away from many of them saying "damn, that was awesome!" And there weren't a lot of Viking-metal bands playing Lollapalooza.

So while there probably *are* some factors that increase the odds of success for a "heathen" metal band in a live setting, I think we also just got lucky this year, or the organizers are geniuses at selecting bands.

Heck, I just realized today that it would have been even (way) better had Grey Skies Fallen performed as originally scheduled!

Neil

 

[AsModEe]

They plugged their instruments into amplifiers and stood on the stage. One guy pushed the black and white levers on his keyboard, two guys vibrated the strings on their stringed instruments, one guy whacked his drums with wooden sticks and mallets, and one guy held a microphone in front of his mouth and made noises into it. That's pretty much how they performed, as far as I could tell.

Ok, sorry, that was a smart-ass response. To know how well I thought they performed, read my original review.

Ok, sorry, that was a smart-ass response too. But it *is* pretty much all there in my original review. I thought they were boring, except for when the dude talked and went "HA HA HA HA...." However, I've never been able to get into them on disc either, so I'm probably not the best judge. Performance-wise, they were a group of motionless, large-faced, pasty-skinned Englishmen, so there wasn't a lot to see. But like I said, it seemed like other people were diggin' 'em, so there's that.

Neil

ok thx for the info. I'm not that much into them either, but their last album is enjoyable.

Oh yeah, I remember watching a video of an old performance at wacken and it was well... pathetic. The singer freaking looked exactly like Fred Durst (tried to act like him too) and the sound was pretty horrible.

 

[skyrefuge]

To the contrary, the theme of HC is singular, while ProgPower brings together two different sub-genres.

Nay, I think that's just a semantic deception. Just because HC bands aren't as easily-labelled doesn't mean they're all the same thing. If we remove the labels and just look at musical differences as if we were cloistered nuns who had never heard rock'n'roll music before, I'd say that Rudra-Earthen-Obtest-Manetheren-Slough Feg has more variation than any ProgPower lineup.

The difference I see is that not many of HC bands could have been well-known to most of the attendees in advance, yet they still showed up, and the crowd size was relatively constant for each band (obviously growing for later bands). In contrast, I always marvel at the PPUSA board when Glenn announces a new band and lots of people are like "who? Never heard of 'em, that's not gonna help get me to Atlanta!" And of course then people end up calling for those bands to *return* the next year because they finally realized "hey, turns out Glenn was right about those guys, they were so great, maybe I should have trusted him!" The irony is that they still don't trust him for the next year, because demanding familiar returning bands eliminates slots for new bands.

Now, it could just be a numbers game. ProgPower draws what, 1200? Versus the 300 max I was estimating for HC. Maybe there *are* 300 people who would show up for ProgPower without knowing many of the bands (just for the music; let's eliminate the "social" draw for the sake of this argument). It could be that it's the other 900 who are afraid of the unfamiliar. Also, ProgPower is a bit more expensive, so there is some more risk involved.

I guess I'm just a lot more aware of whining about an unfamiliar ProgPower lineup than I am about an unfamiliar HC lineup.

The age of the average attendee at PP has nothing to do with attendance for the last band. Evergrey closed the entire PP festival last year, with a two hour set, and didn't lose a soul.

That's because Evergrey has played there a million times, so they're familiar, and thus, all the old people aren't afraid of them.

I know I, for one, was shocked when they were announced as a headliner. They create almost zero buzz on any of the forums I frequent.

Oh, so now you're telling me the problem is not that the PP crowd was too old, it's that they weren't old *enough*! Damn kids, they don't respect their history!

Neil

 

[J.]

Rudra is Vedic Metal, not Heathen/Pagan...thus different.

Same with The Chasm last year.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

isnt it about the worship of many gods? wouldnt that be paganism in a way

 

[General Zod]

Just because HC bands aren't as easily-labelled doesn't mean they're all the same thing.

But they all have a common theme running through their music. Point being, people who are fans of one band, tend to be fans of the other.

...I'd say that Rudra-Earthen-Obtest-Manetheren-Slough Feg has more variation than any ProgPower lineup.

That depends on where you look for variation. As you stated, Prog and Power are "hugely-dependent on the vocals". And in regard to vocals, ProgPower offers a great deal more diversity than HC.

The difference I see is that not many of HC bands could have been well-known to most of the attendees in advance, yet they still showed up, and the crowd size was relatively constant for each band (obviously growing for later bands).

Was there any place for the crowd to go (as there is in Atlanta)? Earthlink is huge. There's tons of space for people to scatter to. Unless the venue for HCII was set up similarly, it's not a fair comparison.

Maybe there *are* 300 people who would show up for ProgPower without knowing many of the bands (just for the music; let's eliminate the "social" draw for the sake of this argument).

It's not a matter of "maybe". There are 300 Gold Badge holders who buy their badges before the first band is announced.

That's because Evergrey has played there a million times, so they're familiar, and thus, all the old people aren't afraid of them.

Point being, if the band is a band people want to see, they stay.

In the end, I look forward to both festivals. I loved HC1 and had planned to go back. Unfortunately, the line-up wasn't to my liking.

Zod

 

[Demonspell]

Interesting discussion here...I agree with Neil that the lineups for Heathen Crusade have been more eclectic than PP, and that you're less likely to hear a black metal fan complaining about there being too much folky shit compared to the frequent prog vs. power debates. But I also think Zod is right about HC being more of a niche audience. As for the latter being less open-minded, some PP bands that don't fit the conventional festival profile (Orphaned Land, Freak Kitchen) were huge successes, so that's open to debate.

 

[JayKeeley]

So while there probably *are* some factors that increase the odds of success for a "heathen" metal band in a live setting, I think we also just got lucky this year, or the organizers are geniuses at selecting bands.

I'm not sure if it's a matter of luck. It is a case of selecting the right bands, but again, it's also to do with the stage presence and musicianship of bands like Mael Mordha, Primordial, Manegarm, or even Novembers Doom. Bands like that remind me of what the 'heavy metal experience' is supposed to be, at least for me. The music is supposed to offer some level of escapism. It is my fight club.

So far, it's two Heathen Crusades in a row that have blown away any other festival experience I've ever attended. I have NEVER gone back to a ProgPower, OzzFest, or whatever fest, thinking "wow, this is just as good as last year". And I'm not talking about the music necessarily but the 'fun' factor and that same level of escapism via the music. Indeed, half the time at other fests is spent drinking at the bar, which is fine but we can do that anywhere!

That seems to be the bottom line for me and Heathen Crusade -- I simply have more fun at HC because we're allowed to just be ourselves. Drinking, shouting, moshing, etc without fear of looking 'out of place'. It's a weekend to get away from it all, not hang out at a bar with the music acting as a secondary factor somewhere in the background on a loudspeaker. By the way, did anyone notice a single security guard at HC2? I think I heard someone say they saw 1 guy. What an autonomous bunch we are.