Bal-Sagoth @ HCII

[JayKeeley]

Was there any place for the crowd to go (as there is in Atlanta)?

Yup. A total separate area for a bar and merchandise. I really liked the venue this year for that reason, but we had these damn pillars in the main venue keeping the roof up but forgot they were there after a while.

It's not a matter of "maybe". There are 300 Gold Badge holders who buy their badges before the first band is announced.

yeah but you do realize that prog and power is infinitely more accessible than any other sub-genre of heavy metal. it's not as if it's much of a stretch to find an audience for power metal compared to, say, pagan black metal bands from Lithuania who may have self-released 2 CDs and a couple of 7" splits.

I don't think HC and ProgPower should even be compared for things like 'tickets sold' etc. It's not a race or competition. The HC promoters are obviously not doing it for the money because they're (so far) remaining true to the underground. Even bands like Satyricon or Enslaved might be too big for HC. Goddamn, my hat goes off to Kupshi and Mr Mayhem.

 

[Demilich]

I'd hazard a guess as to many of those 300 Gold Badge holders being the type of people who'll listen to pretty much anything that falls into "their" genres... prog and power

 

[skyrefuge]

Point being, people who are fans of one band, tend to be fans of the other.

Yeah, so it sounds like you're saying that the HC attendees have a broad taste that crosses over genres and styles. I agree.

And really my point is not necessarily that they are "fans" of lots of different stuff, but rather, that they're interested to check out bands that they are *not* yet "fans" of.

That depends on where you look for variation. As you stated, Prog and Power are "hugely-dependent on the vocals". And in regard to vocals, ProgPower offers a great deal more diversity than HC.

At HCII there were two bands with melodic female vocals, a bunch with melodic male vocals, and a wide variety of growled vocals. So I'm not sure how ProgPower has more vocal variety than that. But yes, I would say that the winner of the "variety" contest is at least debatable; I just meant to point out that the "two genres" of ProgPower didn't automatically mean it has more variety.

Was there any place for the crowd to go (as there is in Atlanta)? Earthlink is huge. There's tons of space for people to scatter to. Unless the venue for HCII was set up similarly, it's not a fair comparison.

Yeah, actually I'd say it was pretty similar. The building is split in half, with a wall down the middle separating the bar area from the stage area. Obviously not as big of an area as Earthlink, but percentage-wise, it was at least as big. I was never really in the bar area when bands were playing though, so I don't know if people went there when they didn't like a band, or if they just weren't in the venue entirely.

It's not a matter of "maybe". There are 300 Gold Badge holders who buy their badges before the first band is announced.

Yeah, I said "if we remove the social factor." The music is secondary to a lot of those gold-badgers these days. But still, there *are* probably 300 out of the 1200 who would go just for the music without knowing any of the bands. But those aren't the people I see whining, so I'm not aware of them.

In the end, I look forward to both festivals. I loved HC1 and had planned to go back. Unfortunately, the line-up wasn't to my liking.

Ah, I see....so all of this is just because you're mad at yourself for missing bands that you thought you wouldn't like, and now the reviews are making you second-guess yourself.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

As for the latter being less open-minded, some PP bands that don't fit the conventional festival profile (Orphaned Land, Freak Kitchen) were huge successes, so that's open to debate.

Yeah, that's sorta my point. Once the whining PP-forum people (who I'm sure are a tiny minority of the PP audience) finally listen to or see one of those bands they aren't familiar with, then they're suddenly surprised: "wow, I've never heard of this band before, and they're actually GOOD?" So it's not that their minds are so closed as to forcefully dislike things that are different, but they simply aren't as open to exploring the unknown, to taking a chance.

And to be fair, there was a good amount of pre-show openness to Orphaned Land as I recall. But Freak Kitchen is the perfect example of what brings out my high-and-mighty scoffing: I remember lots of "wtf? a band that uses a dildo onstage? Well, at least that gives me more time at the bar!" posts beforehand, and now, they're playing the Showcase to the joy of everyone.

Neil

 

[JayKeeley]

Orphaned Land will forever be one of the highlights of ProgPower history. Granted, they would never have been there if it weren't for the release of Mabool on Century Media (how many folks even realized they were previously an 'exotic' death/doom type band on Holy Records?), but still, seeing them live on stage was extraordinary. Plus it was probably a monetary risk going in with them, unlike bands like, say, Primal Fear, but it seemed to pay off. From what I remember of a poll on that forum, they were voted as one of the best acts deserving of a return spot. Ironically enough, the vibe from the 45 minutes of the Orphaned Land show is similar to the vibe you get at the entire HC fest. It's that 'earthy' folky organic feel to it all.

 

[skyrefuge]

I'm not sure if it's a matter of luck.

Ok, I wasn't able to attend HC1, so I can't compare. But yeah, if they've managed to pull off this level of quality two years in a row, then that certainly reduces the part of the success attributable to "luck".

Damn, I really wish I would have seen Primordial.

By the way, did anyone notice a single security guard at HC2? I think I heard someone say they saw 1 guy. What an autonomous bunch we are.

Yeah, there was a guy or two walking around the crowd in the red shirts, but I'd call them more "club staff" than "security", especially given their size relative to the size of some in the mosh pit!

yeah but you do realize that prog and power is infinitely more accessible than any other sub-genre of heavy metal. it's not as if it's much of a stretch to find an audience for power metal compared to, say, pagan black metal bands from Lithuania who may have self-released 2 CDs and a couple of 7" splits.

Exactly. Like I was saying, I was even having trouble finding places to illegally download some stuff from these bands, and I *never* have that problem! So that's why I was so pleasantly surprised to see all the people who showed up, because in my previous experience, I would have thought everyone would have said "no, I need to know all 6 of their albums forwards and backwards before spending the money to make that trip". I'm sure those people *are* still out there, and HC would have a larger audience if the music was easier to obtain, but at least everyone isn't like that.

Goddamn, my hat goes off to Kupshi and Mr Mayhem.

Word.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

Ironically enough, the vibe from the 45 minutes of the Orphaned Land show is similar to the vibe you get at the entire HC fest. It's that 'earthy' folky organic feel to it all.

Good point. Orphaned Land for HCIII!!! I'm sure there's *some* ecclesiastical body out there who finds their religious views incorrect, and thus "heathen"!

I've seen 'em twice now (thrice if you count their acoustic set), but I still need to see 'em with Yossi.

Neil

 

[General Zod]

yeah but you do realize that prog and power is infinitely more accessible than any other sub-genre of heavy metal. it's not as if it's much of a stretch to find an audience for power metal compared to, say, pagan black metal bands from Lithuania who may have self-released 2 CDs and a couple of 7" splits.

That's sort of a wierd deal. While I agree, musically, Power Metal is much, much more accessible than Black Metal, bands like Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, Emperor, Immortal will outdraw 99% of Power or Prog Metal bands. You see a lot more Black Metal on the Headbanger's Ball (for instance) than Power Metal. So, while Black Metal is more difficult to appreciate, it seems to draw a decent audience (probably because of the appeal to a younger audience).

I don't think HC and ProgPower should even be compared for things like 'tickets sold' etc. It's not a race or competition.

We had this discussion offline as well. However, I still disagree. I think they're comparable on many levels. That said, I wasn't the one drawing the initial comparison, only discussing the comparisons others drew.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, so it sounds like you're saying that the HC attendees have a broad taste that crosses over genres and styles. I agree.

I think most Metal fans have wide-ranging tastes. Of course, there are fans of all genres, who don't listen to anything but one genre. Something else to consider... most fans of Black Metal probably started off as Power Metal fans and as their tastes evolved, they learned to appreciate the more extreme elements in Metal.

And really my point is not necessarily that they are "fans" of lots of different stuff, but rather, that they're interested to check out bands that they are *not* yet "fans" of.

I think that's true of both fan bases. As soon as a band is announced on the PP board, people who are unfamiliar with that band, immediately ask for recommendations (on which disc to start with).

At HCII there were two bands with melodic female vocals, a bunch with melodic male vocals, and a wide variety of growled vocals. So I'm not sure how ProgPower has more vocal variety than that. But yes, I would say that the winner of the "variety" contest is at least debatable; I just meant to point out that the "two genres" of ProgPower didn't automaticlly mean it has more variety.

Yes, but by and large, the vocals in extreme music are also extreme. And this style of vocal delivery is inherently limited and not given to a great deal of variety.

Yeah, I said "if we remove the social factor." The music is secondary to a lot of those gold-badgers these days.

That's pure speculation on your part. And if you want to talk "social factor", I've heard just as much, if not more, about the social aspects of HCII as I have about the music. That's just the nature of a festival weekend.

But still, there *are* probably 300 out of the 1200 who would go just for the music without knowing any of the bands. But those aren't the people I see whining, so I'm not aware of them.

How many folks went to HCII without knowing any of the bands?

Ah, I see....so all of this is just because you're mad at yourself for missing bands that you thought you wouldn't like, and now the reviews are making you second-guess yourself.

I knew full well, when I chose not to go, the social aspect of the weekend would be a blast. Unfortunately, as the line-up was unveiled, it became clear that this year wasn't for me. As it turns out, I don't own a single disc, by any of the bands who played HCII. As bands were announced, I checked out those I hadn't heard, but none appealed me. Regardless, my vacation days are spoken for (Puerto Rico, Chicago Powerfest, Wacken, ProgPower).

Zod

 

[J.]

if progpower out-sells HC, it just means there are more people with bad tastes out there willing to travel

no biggie

 

[skyrefuge]

Something else to consider... most fans of Black Metal probably started off as Power Metal fans and as their tastes evolved, they learned to appreciate the more extreme elements in Metal.

For fans of a certain age, perhaps. One thing that's kinda cool is that it seems like kids getting into metal now don't have restrictive tastes ("haha, those power metal singers are so gay!" and "who would listen to that cookie-monster shit?") like us old-timers. See Dragonforce/Cellador on those metalcore tours for evidence of that.

I think that's true of both fan bases. As soon as a band is announced on the PP board, people who are unfamiliar with that band, immediately ask for recommendations (on which disc to start with).

Yeah, true. Like I said, it's easier to remember the whiners!

That's pure speculation on your part. And if you want to talk "social factor", I've heard just as much, if not more, about the social aspects of HCII as I have about the music.

Nah, I personally know some of the ProgPower old-timers who have definitely moved on to other musical areas, but still attend. So the speculation is only on the number of people who are like that.

And yeah, all these HCII gayboys are trying their best to ruin my argument by slobbering all over each other!

How many folks went to HCII without knowing any of the bands?

I meant "without knowing any of the bands in advance".

As it turns out, I don't own a single disc, by any of the bands who played HCII.

Same for me. And I still don't. I'll probably buy the Mael Mordha album if it becomes available, and maybe I'll go back and explore Rudra again, but that's about it. And I think that's the main point Ali and I were making, that even without that familiarity, the festival can still work amazingly well for us.

Neil

 

[General Zod]

And I think that's the main point Ali and I were making, that even without that familiarity, the festival can still work amazingly well for us.

Fair enough. But isn't that true of any festival? Take a fan of a genere. Stick him in the crowd at a well run festival, dedicated to that genre, and he'll have a great time.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

Fair enough. But isn't that true of any festival? Take a fan of a genere. Stick him in the crowd at a well run festival, dedicated to that genre, and he'll have a great time.

Zod

I think that's the 'oddity' of HC, as Jason previously said: "There's just something about HC....". I can't put my finger on it exactly but it does seem to have this aura about it that other events and festivals cannot touch.

You're actually a very good example to support this theory. You're predominantly a fan of prog and power metal, and you came along to Heathen Crusade 1 a year ago and came out saying it was the greatest festival experience of your life. You can also now list Primordial and Novembers Doom as some of your favorite bands, I'm sure the live experience only enhanced your opinion of them. I imagine you also like Moonsorrow and Thyrfing more perhaps?

I guess that's why so many of us are still buzzing....we didn't expect lightning to strike twice.