Balancing a Mix

[NovembersDirge]

So I've been working on this mix, and when I've been ABing it I suddenly realized how ridiculously bassy it is. I've been trying to do stuff to fix it in the mix, and it just doesn't seem to be doing the trick, but if I just take the EQ, slope it up on the high end (basically a small incline slope centered at 2550 Hz, with a Q of 19 and a db boost of 4.5), it sounds well-balanced. This is something that would technically be really easy to do in a "mastering" process, but it's just killing me because I want my mix to be balanced and not need to be fixed.

Any helpful advice?

Here are the [old] clips:
Un EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-un-eqd-clip
EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-1-eqd-clip

Here are updated clips after having discussed this problem further down in the thread. Interested in giving your opinion? Listen and post!
Un-EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-3-un-eqd-clip
EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-4-eqd-clip

Both are downloadable if you want to.

 

[Williamn]

Post clip

 

[Star Ark]

So it is really bassy compared to what? Your other mixes or commercial releases?

Adding that much high end in the mastering stage means the mix needs work. Adding high end isn't giving it less bass but it is balancing it. Too much bass will kill your attempts at getting a loud master, it probably wll sound nasty through systems that don't have alot of bass. Unless you are doing some sort of lo fi sludge/doom you will want to fix this problem before mastering.

Lots and lots of lows can be cut. Even instruments that are supposed to have heaps of bass still like high pass filters, really everything should have a high pass filter. Unless things have been tracked poorly you should be able to get this mix working.

These days I think in opposites, don't add, subtract. Seriously, it sounds like pretentious bullshit but for mixing it works. A wall of guitars for me never sounds as big in the mix as a double tracked section, and once I do a little home mastering job I can get the mixes heaps bigger, where a busy bassy mix sounds great as I'm mixing, but it goes to shit in the mastering stage. Less is more, subtract before adding. Plus boosting large amounts with plugins sounds pretty nasty generally

 

[NovembersDirge]

Clips added, both are downloadable. Check the original post.

 

[NovembersDirge]

So it is really bassy compared to what? Your other mixes or commercial releases?

Adding that much high end in the mastering stage means the mix needs work. Adding high end isn't giving it less bass but it is balancing it. Too much bass will kill your attempts at getting a loud master, it probably wll sound nasty through systems that don't have alot of bass. Unless you are doing some sort of lo fi sludge/doom you will want to fix this problem before mastering.

Lots and lots of lows can be cut. Even instruments that are supposed to have heaps of bass still like high pass filters, really everything should have a high pass filter. Unless things have been tracked poorly you should be able to get this mix working.

These days I think in opposites, don't add, subtract. Seriously, it sounds like pretentious bullshit but for mixing it works. A wall of guitars for me never sounds as big in the mix as a double tracked section, and once I do a little home mastering job I can get the mixes heaps bigger, where a busy bassy mix sounds great as I'm mixing, but it goes to shit in the mastering stage. Less is more, subtract before adding. Plus boosting large amounts with plugins sounds pretty nasty generally

I've been comparing it with a good mix done by one of my favorite producers (http://www.signaturetonestudios.com). I'm not worried about loudness at all at this stage, just about the fact that the mix sounds not just bassy but.. a bit muddy.

I've actually been working really hard to keep the extra shit to a minimum. Of course I have multiple tracks, but I only have two tracks for every guitar (and I had a third that I cut). One vocal track. One bass track and then the drums (Superior 2.0). I've got some keyboards and acoustics. So I'm a little at a loss for what I'm supposed to be changing to make this sound better...

 

[Star Ark]

I've been comparing it with a good mix done by one of my favorite producers (http://www.signaturetonestudios.com). I'm not worried about loudness at all at this stage, just about the fact that the mix sounds not just bassy but.. a bit muddy.

I've actually been working really hard to keep the extra shit to a minimum. Of course I have multiple tracks, but I only have two tracks for every guitar (and I had a third that I cut). One vocal track. One bass track and then the drums (Superior 2.0). I've got some keyboards and acoustics. So I'm a little at a loss for what I'm supposed to be changing to make this sound better...

The mix sounds pretty good and yes the mix with eq sounds heaps better. I would work on the kicks the most, they are making the whole mix kind of "shake". If you brought up the highs of the cymbals and guitars a few db, then cut some of the really low stuff out of the kicks, then only added 2 db or so of the eq to the master buss instead of 4.5 it could be cool. Boosting from 2550 tells me you must have some pretty scooped guitar tones, are they amp sims that you can easily change?

 

[Star Ark]

So you were comparing to a commercial release, then hell yeah, lose some of that bass. I almost always add a little top end with I home master, never more than 1-2 db of anything on the master for me.

Good luck, but I think it is almost there

 

[NovembersDirge]

The mix sounds pretty good and yes the mix with eq sounds heaps better. I would work on the kicks the most, they are making the whole mix kind of "shake". If you brought up the highs of the cymbals and guitars a few db, then cut some of the really low stuff out of the kicks, then only added 2 db or so of the eq to the master buss instead of 4.5 it could be cool. Boosting from 2550 tells me you must have some pretty scooped guitar tones, are they amp sims that you can easily change?

I started dropping down the kicks right away, I want them to be big, but I think you're right about how big they are right now. I also high passed the snares bumped the EQ on them from 100 to 500.

The scooped guitars was partially my attempt to try to fix the issues that I was having on the high end. What difference will that have in the mix? Should I "unscoop" them? The guitar tone has gotten a tad on the tinny side, but I've not been sure how to fix that.

And yeah, I'm using Revlaver / Recabinate for the guitars, so I can change the tone at will (which is a blessing and a curse).

So you were comparing to a commercial release, then hell yeah, lose some of that bass. I almost always add a little top end with I home master, never more than 1-2 db of anything on the master for me.

Good luck, but I think it is almost there

Yeah, but unmastered. Does that make a difference?

 

[Star Ark]

I started dropping down the kicks right away, I want them to be big, but I think you're right about how big they are right now. I also high passed the snares bumped the EQ on them from 100 to 500.

The scooped guitars was partially my attempt to try to fix the issues that I was having on the high end. What difference will that have in the mix? Should I "unscoop" them? The guitar tone has gotten a tad on the tinny side, but I've not been sure how to fix that.

And yeah, I'm using Revlaver / Recabinate for the guitars, so I can change the tone at will (which is a blessing and a curse).



Yeah, but unmastered. Does that make a difference?

If you unscoop the guitars you probably wont need your eq on the master buss sitting at 2550, ideally I think at least 5k is at low as you want to go on a master buss high shelf, I try at get it higher because the mid frequencies are hard to handle. Boosting lots with a plugin doesn't sound very good, after a couple of db it does bad things to the sound and you are running your entire mix through it.

I high pass everything. Absolutely everything. Even kick drums. As far as 50hz. I thought it seemed strange but I kept on reading forums about it, gave it a try and booyah, a clearer tighter bass sound. A good bass tone helps make the guitars sound fuller. (you may already know this, sorry if you do)

You may need to look at vocals too if you move the high shelf on the master buss higher, because at 2550 they are being very affected by the master buss eq. Everything with mid range is being affected, but most obvious is the vocals and guitars and snares.

Comparing to a mastered version is tough, I don't know what to suggest about that other than don't push the mix too hard, let the mastering guys do that. If it is too squashed when they get it they can't make it sound that much nicer

 

[NovembersDirge]

If you unscoop the guitars you probably wont need your eq on the master buss sitting at 2550, ideally I think at least 5k is at low as you want to go on a master buss high shelf, I try at get it higher because the mid frequencies are hard to handle. Boosting lots with a plugin doesn't sound very good, after a couple of db it does bad things to the sound and you are running your entire mix through it.

I high pass everything. Absolutely everything. Even kick drums. As far as 50hz. I thought it seemed strange but I kept on reading forums about it, gave it a try and booyah, a clearer tighter bass sound. A good bass tone helps make the guitars sound fuller. (you may already know this, sorry if you do)

You may need to look at vocals too if you move the high shelf on the master buss higher, because at 2550 they are being very affected by the master buss eq. Everything with mid range is being affected, but most obvious is the vocals and guitars and snares.

Comparing to a mastered version is tough, I don't know what to suggest about that other than don't push the mix too hard, let the mastering guys do that. If it is too squashed when they get it they can't make it sound that much nicer

OK, so I took your advice and did the following:

Dropped a lot of the bass in general, unscooped the guitars and high passed some stuff that wasn't high passed (including the bass and bass drums). Included the clean part which follows to compare the effects that would happen when I added a high buss at 6900 Hz, +2.5 db, with a Q of .71. The second clip is EQd as described in the previous sentence.

Un-EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-3-un-eqd-clip
EQd: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-4-eqd-clip

It sounds a lot better to me now, you got thoughts on it?

 

[Star Ark]

I think it sounds heaps better, but I like open guitar sounds. Your music works with a scooped guitar sound too but I don't listen to that much black metal, I prefer it this way. The song goes on and does that nice acoustic section so I think the song works with the new mix. I would be experimenting with high passing everything, and see how much you can remove from all elements of your mix. Also sometimes a low shelf works better than a high pass. Bass is so important to a good mix

The best advice I would say is get the sound as close as you can with the source. Don't add too much extra eq to an amp sim unless you really have to, just change the actual eqs in the amp sim itself. If the kick sound you have is too much, don't try and remove all the bass untill you have tried out all the other kick samples you may have. My mixes these days have a lot of automation, I dont eq much at all. I only mix myself though so I don't have to correct other people's tracking mistakes, I suspect you are the same? Just a dude trying to make his own music?

 

[NovembersDirge]

I think it sounds heaps better, but I like open guitar sounds. Your music works with a scooped guitar sound too but I don't listen to that much black metal, I prefer it this way. The song goes on and does that nice acoustic section so I think the song works with the new mix. I would be experimenting with high passing everything, and see how much you can remove from all elements of your mix. Also sometimes a low shelf works better than a high pass. Bass is so important to a good mix

The best advice I would say is get the sound as close as you can with the source. Don't add too much extra eq to an amp sim unless you really have to, just change the actual eqs in the amp sim itself. If the kick sound you have is too much, don't try and remove all the bass untill you have tried out all the other kick samples you may have. My mixes these days have a lot of automation, I dont eq much at all. I only mix myself though so I don't have to correct other people's tracking mistakes, I suspect you are the same? Just a dude trying to make his own music?

Yeah, at this stage that's what I'm doing, just working on my own music for the love of it and mixing/recording because I think it's really fun (and I want to have good copies of my stuff). I will of course try to find indie labels willing to put out the material, but I hardly expect rockstardom.

Well, this track walks the line between death and black metal, most of my stuff isn't so blasty for one thing. This track is just a part of a concept piece that I did. I prefer a guitar tone that isn't super scooped, but I was scooping in a clumsy attempt to try to fix the muddiness issue.

I thought the kick ended up right where I wanted it. I need to do some comparisons and stuff, but I'm feeling quite a lot more satisfied with this mix as it stands right now and I appreciate the help. I won't be mastering my own stuff as it is, so I want to knock it all into perfect shape before I send it off to the dude who's going to master it for me.

What you said about getting the sound close to what you want it to be from the beginning is something that I want more than anything. My dream would be to record the guitars and drums and bass and all that "organically" and just have good source tones, and good rooms and so forth. But that ain't where I'm at.

I've uploaded the whole track so that you can hear it in its entirety if you're still interested: http://soundcloud.com/aethereal/09-5-eqd-track