Balancing...

[myownsilence]

yes thanks for that:

"2. Avoid relying on any single element to carry your mix."

So bang goes that previous idea of using the bass!


Ermz is well respected around here, definitely the Guru of these parts.

"the single largest issue I tend to see on these forums is that newcomers don't ask the 'right' questions"

What are the right questions?

 

[myownsilence]

Sorry guys, but the first 4 posts just sound like the blind leading the blind. This thread is really helpfull for people starting out:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...mz-production-tips-compendium-newer-guys.html

Read the whole thread, Ermz almost sounds like he has given up due to us getting pissed of and taking it out on the experienced. (something I try not to do)

Great thread though.

But I still don' get the carving out of sounds. I find if I start poking stuff through my drums sound crap like they have lost sonic integrity and everythings bunged up together and in a major fight.

I find now I just mix stuff low in the mix and it seems to work better then just pluck stuff up using EQ. I turn the guitars down to allow the drums to sound natural without being articially screwed.




On a final note, I know Ermz gets pissed of, but as is pointed out, it takes years to get good at, those years ar gonna be slow, painfully annoying. Of course we get frustrated.


I just want to know when you can class yourself as someone who isn't a newbie, ive been at this for over 10 years now! Im still shit.

 

[ahjteam]

In fact its very concerning that the bass is the first thing that gets pushed up and then use the kick to turn it back down.

The reason to start with bass and kick is sorting out the most problematic area (the below 100hz low end) in the beginning instead of struggling with it in the end. You can usually pretty much highpass everything else at 80-100hz or even higher in rock and metal music because they aren't needed there.

I just want to know when you can class yourself as someone who isn't a newbie, ive been at this for over 10 years now! Im still shit.

I started mixing bands live in 1999 and I'm still constantly learning.

 

[Nebulous]

Read the whole thread, Ermz almost sounds like he has given up

I can honestly assure you that Ermz is not giving up.
Not too long ago he approached me for an audio related venture which is a work in progess for the future. He is booked pretty solid this year also.

RE: asking the right questions, I would say that in this case where you're asking for help on balance of a mix, your question is the right one as it's something that we all have to learn with mixing. What may be missing is an example of a mix that you're having trouble with.

I must admit that reading back on my other posts I did come across as abit of an ass hole. Defiantely not my intention.
It just seems like you've got your own way to work, so the suggestions so far are either being dismissed quickly, or you just haven't found the right person to help you.
The best advice to give at this point is to either post a mix or listen out for other peoples mixes that you like and ask them what they did to specific instruments to get them to that level.

 

[Ermz]

This is a pretty difficult one to answer directly, mostly because it's such a broad question. It's a good one though.

A great majority of the work we do as mix engineers is balance-related, though of course there are other aspects which are more creative in nature too. Balancing incorporates both left and right brain functions, but can generally be thought of as one of the more left-brain oriented tasks of a very right-brain process (the totally left brain stuff being editing, setting up your work area, color-coding, routing etc.), and arguably the most crucial towards getting the other pieces to fall into place. I find correct balancing to be the 'foundation' for the aesthetic of a record, so I will spend a LOT of time making sure it's finely tweaked before moving on from the template track of that record.

If you think of the mix as a jigsaw puzzle, that generally puts you on the right path. The only difference is that in many ways the pieces here overlap with each other, though their overt tones usually push towards a certain area of dominance.

There isn't much that can be said here that beats experience & repetition. It essentially comes down to just working out what your reference records are, and then working out how to match those sounds, both via listening and perhaps hunting around for some more specific techniques from set engineers.

If you have more specific questions about your works in general, it makes it a lot easier to provide more direct answers. There is so much to cover in this field, that you can't really do it with one broad sweep. The more I learn, the harder I find it to give advice, simply because there are so many ways to skin a cat. It all depends on the aesthetic you're trying to achieve, and the sort of balance and drive that you're after.

 

[myownsilence]

If I can make some general observations. I am a bit of a Jens Bogren fan. Not that I think he is the be all and end all its just his mixes made me re evaluate my techniques. I love some of Don Gilmores mixes (the new Lcuna Coil).

I've also read the Jens thread on here alot and... well lets just say it made me raise more questions than get any answers. Usually engineers can suggest what made the sounds they used, ie Mesa for thinner guitar sounds, drum samples etc.

Where I am at I think on your little table is someone who has reached a dead end with making music and I am starting to realise that overall arrangement is where this is at. I've stopped getting excited about kit and plug ins.

I do have specifics. For example bass, is kick typically just louder or is the bass? I know its a question with 2 answers, but if you mix the kick lower, do you typically boost the top end to make it poke over the top of the bass?

DONT ANSWER THAT - as I know its mix specific, however there is an ideal here as to me the bass guitar in most metal bands sounds louder with jsut a little masking of the kick via the bass.


Am I in a twist - you BET because for the bigest worry I have at the moment is bullshitting myself.

I read suggestions that everything is like a jigsaw. But using eq to cut away the low end of a guitar is what gets me confused, the bass porvides the low end, but I know there is a lot of low end information in guitar chuggs, if I cut away even up to 150hz that infrmation goes.

And the bass mainly sits in 200hz region anyway so cutting away guitar at anything less than 200hz to make room for bass is a waste of cut anyway.




One thing I have learnt is this:


There are never answers in mixing, only questions.

 

[Ermz]

Alright, I'll try to be as helpful as I can with the specifics.

Kicks commonly peak higher than bass guitars. The whole reason for their existence is to add 'punch' and drive to the track. They shouldn't conflict, but rather augment each other. The kick needs a little 'hole' in the bass guitar spectrum to poke through and seat itself neatly. The people who are too lazy to do this commonly resort to side-chain compression on the bass, triggered by the kick... either that or they like the feeling of ducking it provides, which can be very useful in a dance or electro music situation.

Is there any reason you'd want to retain that low-end information on a guitar track? It can be done, but just bear in mind that the low-end of a guitar track is very resonant and not very tight at all, to varying degrees depending on room, cab, guitar, amp etc. You have to do a bit of low-end control on the guitar track in order to get it 'speaking' nicely within the mix. You can leave a bit of low-end in there to interact with the bass a little, but leave too much and you've lost your bass clarity and eaten up some more headroom in your mix. This is a balance, and is one of the finer tricks of our fine profession. Most engineers will say that the low-end is one of the hardest things to get right. Part of it is due to our speakers and rooms being very far from ideal for mixing that range. Experiment with cutting a ton of low from the guitars, and see how they interact with the bass. Play around and learn for yourself how it all sounds, and where you want it to go. Then reference to your favorite records and try to piece together how they did it.

I can't really give you any specifics on Jens, as his style doesn't really speak to me, and I've never really looked into, or read about his techniques. The one thing that does come to mind though is that he has a hell of a studio, and seems to use a plethora of fantastic outboard gear. I would assume that with Jens it's about getting the basics right. Make sure you're tracking things very close to how you want them to sound.

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

there is always an answer for any question...the only difference is tweaking that answer to make it fit your given situation.presets arent a know all end all fix but rather a foundation for you to start from and then adjust what you feel needs adjusting...just like you said every song is different so no 2 answers will always be the same.

Fighting for space is exactly done with EQ...there may be frequencies in your guitars that the ear cant even hear...but in the mix its still there and taking up room so you need to eq it to get rid of that so that instrument B can fit better in the mix.

sometimes it is hard to carve out some lows from the guitars because if youve been playing by yourself in a room with just the guitar and amp then you most likely have gotten used to the low end...but in alot of situations the chugs can be acheived by readjusting your gain settings and other things...then take out some lows, slide the bass in, and whoa, theres the low end again and ull also notice its not as muddy as it was before.


i dont know if im the only one that noticed this guys but this guy has asked about eq and compression about 6 times already, hes just reworded his posts each time but seems to still be looking for the same general answer

 

[myownsilence]

i dont know if im the only one that noticed this guys but this guy has asked about eq and compression about 6 times already, hes just reworded his posts each time but seems to still be looking for the same general answer

Perhaps im just incompetent then, my apologies.

I don't think Im going to learn much on forums anymore it just isn't working for me either that or I need some serious help in my approach. I've had some great assistance in The Womb and some here too but, it goes over my head many a time.

Forums are great but there is little flow. ie one question one solution.


I've tried desperately hard to get work in studios as I felt that a week in a studio probably equates to a month on forums. Problem is I tend to get turned away with little hope.


This isn't a cry for help, im way past that, slowly selling of the gear as I realised its just a hammer in the hands of inexperienced dreamer. I thought that maybe after some years of really trying to nail it I might have more luck but this has not been the case. I love music I used to feel I was quite a good song writer.

I love recording but I now can't write music, can't mix music and quite frankly apparently can't ask questions about music either, or understand the answers one or the other.

So with my desire to get good at what I love the most, im now in a void and I cant see a way out. Don't read this as a bad life experience, just been a very hard time with this hobby - um cum lifestyle

Ermz your great and have the patience of a saint, ive read many of your posts, but me is stuck, unable to feel my way into the mix universe I will constantly fuck about with Superioir drummer a bass guitar my guitar and vocals and find that no matter how hard I try I still end up with mixes that sound.... unbalanced.


Is there any hope? Well I would like to think so, and Im sure youi guys understand the frustration. Are my mixes better than a year ago? I don't know I keep feeling like I am being thrown back to where I was a yearago constantly starting again going down the same roads. I can't get a direction in this and it feels like a mess.

Where should I start?

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

i wasnt trying to be a dick or nothing man, so sorry about that, but you ask questions on here then come back a week later asking the same question almost as if your just ignoring the information everyone is trying to give you, you seem to always go back to eq and compression are not usable and everything should be done by moving the faders around...its far from that man just do your research and learn, theres no magic preset that will make you sound like jesus resurrecting ,everything anyone tells you is guidelines to start from and then you build from that...if someone says to boost one of the highs in ur guits...boost it, listen to what its doing boosted, now cut it and listen again, get to the point where ur able to notice the changes in these frequencys, learn which frequencies dont play nice,learn how you can avoid those problems...the best people on here are still learning, theres always knowledge you just have to look and put the work in...Rant over

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

start youtubing shit...maybe videos help more then words i dont know...but theres always something to learn thats y alot of people get turned off by it becuase its really more of an art and its just not for some people...it all boils down to if you have the willingness to listen to other peoples help and learn from it or brush it off because it doesnt 100% relate to your situation

 

[myownsilence]

sorry I went of on one, its easily done...


I jus think I dont know how to apply information properly.

I sit there messing with EQ and eventually ever frequency does stuff and most of it sounds false when adjusted..

 

[myownsilence]

also to Ermz, you might not get Jens but your closer to his area of sound than I am.

 

[myownsilence]

ok here is a clip I understand this is never the best way but maybe if I keep at it you guys can help me see the light at the end of the tunnel.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/880876/clip1.mp3

 

[ahjteam]

ok here is a clip I understand this is never the best way but maybe if I keep at it you guys can help me see the light at the end of the tunnel.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/880876/clip1.mp3

Well, we can give you suggestions how you might be able make the song sound more like we would want it to sound, like I would maybe try to make the guitar in the beginning a little less resonant and more brighter, but I think you are the only one who has the vision and knows the direction that you want to take the song, so need to ask yourself the questions. For example I usually approach my own songs like "this revision song is the final one, unless I am satisfied with it as is". If you are not satisfied with it, ask yourself what you don't like about it, then try to fix it.

Materialize your hatred into questions, the try to answer them yourself.

 

[Demonstealer]

@myownsilence - Why don't you do an audio engineering course at a local college if your stuck? And from the mix I heard the only thing I'd do is raise the guitars a hint and make them a bit brighter. Maybe cut some lows from it if its getting in the way of the drums/bass.

Its really all about trial and error and doing as much work as you can and with experience you will get better as long as your mind is open to new ideas and to accept feedback from people you look up to.

Else if your brain is fried just take a vacation, clear your head and come back to it. Or just have sex

 

[Morgan C]

ok here is a clip I understand this is never the best way but maybe if I keep at it you guys can help me see the light at the end of the tunnel.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/880876/clip1.mp3

Honestly, its not bad at all. There's not really anything specific anyone here can say that's going to make that a lot better. Its really a lot of small things that add up to make it good.

Just listen, see what you don't like, and try to change it. Then, when you're happy, wait a few days, compare it to some records you like the sound of, and start all over again.

However some things I would focus on:
snare is kinda splatty/papery.
The low-end on the bass is also way too much (and this is why the low-end of your kick is not coming through). Also try distorting it (with an amp sim plugin, not a distortion plugin like I started trying).

And the kick seems to be varying too much dynamically. Dunno if you're varying velocities too much or just the comp is set too long release times or what.



I'm not 100% sure what you mean by 'balancing', and how this differs to simply 'mixing'. But as for the low-end, if you're strugglin to get it right (most people do), try putting a highpass on the masterbus set at 200hz, and listen to whats all happening. You should hear some guitars, some bass and the kick should be loud and clear. Also import some reference mixes and run that thru the highpass so you can compare.

One other thing might be to try making your mix really loud. Chuck on GClips and comps and limiters, etc. If your mix is balanced frequency-wise and dynamically, you shouldn't have huge problems getting it loud. If you do have problems, then you know you have to fix something.

 

[Ermz]

Cool dude, the keyword I would say your mix lacks is 'air'. Air is not something you can magically dial in, but rather a collection of a few things which create the impression of space, depth and 'breath' in your mix.

With those clean electrics at the start. Your perfect reference song is Paramore's 'Playing God'. Listen to how CLA treated those guitars at the start. Listen how they have more edge, and at the same time are more upfront than yours. The way you do that is through clever compression and and EQ. A simple starting point would be to get an optical style EQ that can really take off a lot of gain without sounding too colored. Maybe something like the T-Racks Opto, or the CLA Pack LA3. After this, get an EQ that sounds great and just crank the high shelf on it by a few dB. Then sweep that shelf to start from 4k up to about 8k and see where in between you're getting the best sound. It sounds like you could use a bit of high-mid edge as well as air, so you may even get away starting the shelf at 4 or 6k. The compression is what allows you to get them to sit in that 'pocket' and keep them there. Slam those pricks.

Now the biggest problem of your mix is your bass guitar. It's focused in the wrong range. You've got way too much of that 200hz to 300hz low-mid thing going on. Suck out the low mids around there. Reference to other records frequently (at a matched level.. make sure the volumes aren't out). You've also seemingly got too much energy going on in the subs too. Try cutting that stuff out and your kick will punch through easier. It sounds like you also need to clamp down on it harder with a limiter-like compressor. Something like an 1176. Stillwell Rocket, CLA76, Softube FET, hell even an L1 will do. Get that thing PINNED down. It doesn't need that much attack.

This is all secondary, but the guitars are a bit muffled sounding. They sound like they could use a bit more high mid edge and air, much as your clean electrics. It doesn't sound like a very great raw tone though, so you may be a little disadvantaged from the start.

The snare is a little thin sounding. Not sure if I would call it 'papery', but it's not bringing a lot to the table.

There is something not sitting right with me about the kick. But sort the bass guitar out first, and take it from there. It's a piece-by-piece process and each change to one element will affect perception of another. So sort out your biggest issues first then run the mix by us again.

Good luck.

 

[myownsilence]

Hi passing bass guitar question, is hi passing up to 200hz in the wrong direction with bass? Im talking about just making sure I understand the stuff with the kick going on. I see your point about the 200hz range of the bass, i always thought bass was more of a low mid thing.

 

[Nebulous]

I think reading Morgans post he may have meant to low pass instead of high pass.