Band self-induced illusions

[MondoLikeMetal]

1st album - Unfettered creativity. It's YOUR sole creation, and most times, the best
2nd Album - You get picked up by as record co. and everyone is talking in your ear about how to go about it. Sometimes it's more polished, with more bells and whistles, but sometimes polished isn't better and it strays from the origanal heart of the band
3rd album. This is the one you make on the road, and have more material to work with for lyrics - groupies, drugs, inspiration from seeing the world.
4th album - On this one, either the band is in disarray, and your laying down the bass player's parts 'couse he's in rehab, and the album suffers, or it's a culmination of every music experience all rolled into one, and it's a master piece, ala, Metalica

Seriusly, though, try to write two or three CD worth of material before you get signed - before the rollercoaster starts. I'm trying to put 22 songs in the can right now

 

[drew_drummer]

I get the point.. But I would actual think that the band knows better.
I mean, I don't go to the studio to let some "stranger" tell me how to write my music (unless he is giving somekind of producer role).

While it seems like we like to put the AE up on a pedestal as being the supreme judge of music, in the end its just the opinion of one guy..

Yeah, and he's usually a douche-bag who drinks too much!

 

[Jind]

Seriusly, though, try to write two or three CD worth of material before you get signed - before the rollercoaster starts. I'm trying to put 22 songs in the can right now

Not to be the rain on your parade, but what if your first CD of material ends up getting canned by your critics and fans alike, will you still release the "other" two CD's worth of songs you once though were great because you had "all the time in the world to write them" or will you rethink things and rethink your bands writing process and try and deliver something your fans will love with the knowledge of the material that did not work?

Just a though on the writing 3 CD's worth of material - ultimately only 10-12 of 30 songs will make your first album meaning the other 18-20 are filler and stuff you felt not worthy of your initial release. Not sure I would use your method.

As always individual mileage may vary.

 

[Fama]

This also brings us to a new point - do you write music for your fans (or critics) or for yourself? Well, it's probably either "my fans will like this and I love it too" or "I love this shit but my fans might not", but still.

 

[C_F_H_13]

I get the point.. But I would actual think that the band knows better.
I mean, I don't go to the studio to let some "stranger" tell me how to write my music (unless he is giving somekind of producer role).

While it seems like we like to put the AE up on a pedestal as being the supreme judge of music, in the end its just the opinion of one guy..

I gotta strongly disagree. The engineer in the room is the only person with an absolute objective point of view. He's not in the band, he didn't write the songs, and he has no attachment to them at all. He's the one person can look from outside the box so to speak and make rational decisions about the caliber and structure of songs. Sure it's only an opinion, but it's an opinion that isn't biased by a sense of pride of creating something.

Especially someone who has been doing it for years, who's seen hundreds of bands every day of his life knows more about good song writing then you do...period. They have seen the worst of the worst and the best of the best, and they can tell the difference.

Are they always right? of course not, in fact they can be wrong more times then not. But ignoring an outside opinion just cause you think you know better is silly.

 

[Soundlurker]

But ignoring an outside opinion just cause you think you know better is silly.

Not if you want to express YOUR own artistic ideas, i.e. if you're not considering commercial success or critical acclaim as top priority.

 

[Melb_shredder]

This also brings us to a new point - do you write music for your fans (or critics) or for yourself? Well, it's probably either "my fans will like this and I love it too" or "I love this shit but my fans might not", but still.

This is always where I get caught up in writing... I always write riffs etc, and when it gets structured, i try to pull away and go, "Would I listen to this shit if I wasn't writing it???" And when I manage to smile after listening the whole way through, I realize I'm at least nearly there with it... So it's a half half thing. But it's great to have a producer or someone else there to go, 'Hey you know what would be cool???" And what not

 

[amarshism]

This why I like to get involved with pre pro as soon as possible whilst the band writes. We have alot of repeat clients and they also rehearse at our studio so it's relatively easy to keep up with them.

 

[C_F_H_13]

Not if you want to express YOUR own artistic ideas, i.e. if you're not considering commercial success or critical acclaim as top priority.

Regardless, the engineer is there to help you in all aspects of the record, why wouldn't you at least consider an idea? He's already contributing to the sonic "artistic" idea of your record, so what's the difference?

 

[AD Chaos]

I'd say it's DEAD easy to go ¨oh success/moneyz wouldn't affect me at all¨ if you're not actually 'successful' (whatever you consider that to be).

 

[Soundlurker]

Regardless, the engineer is there to help you in all aspects of the record, why wouldn't you at least consider an idea? He's already contributing to the sonic "artistic" idea of your record, so what's the difference?

I am not saying that it's the right/best thing to ignore him but I think it's quite understandable why someone would want a song/album to be as close as possible to what they envisioned, to be truly their own from beginning to the end.

I've had a similar problem with bands I've played in. Sometimes I would have an idea for a whole song and I'd record it and we'll get together to discuss it as a band. What usually happens is 75% of the song will be modified in some way - be it changing duration, repetitions, tempo or replacing parts altogether. Does the song end up sounding better to our audience? Perhaps. Does it have the same vibe and does it make as much sense? Probably not. Ultimately, it makes you feel a bit like you're not playing your own music, which ruins everything a bit, at least for me and I know there are many people that feel similarly.

 

[ArroldW]

i hate this. especially when the band is REALLY stoked and says "the new shit is going to blow you away!" and it sounds exactly the same -____-

I've gotten over it though and just figured that that is said bands "sound" and they are sticking to it until a label tells them otherwise. hahaha

 

[Severu]

I think if you feel so strongly about your music and you don't want anyone to mess with your arrangements and so on, better start learning and produce it yourself from start to finish! But, if you let some other guy produce it or record it or whatever, at least hear the man out, after all it's a valuable perspective.

 

[xFkx]

I wouldn't mind working with a great producer, and learn from him, somehow I believe this would work out great without compromising any artistic integrity

I think you guys are thinking more or record label execs telling you that you should compose indie-grind-metal 'couse that's the hot shit right now, but a producer's role is a whole different thing I think

 

[Williamn]

Regardless, the engineer is there to help you in all aspects of the record, why wouldn't you at least consider an idea? He's already contributing to the sonic "artistic" idea of your record, so what's the difference?

Sure its stupid to ignore any input from other people.. but I don't blame a band for not wanting to change their writing because the AE says so.

I mean.. I hope this does not offend anyone, but lets say I was in a band and I was going to record with Ermz.. I would love his work on the sonic side, but judging from his posts about music I would most likely not agree with any views he might have about the actual writing.

 

[drew_drummer]

I gotta strongly disagree. The engineer in the room is the only person with an absolute objective point of view. He's not in the band, he didn't write the songs, and he has no attachment to them at all. He's the one person can look from outside the box so to speak and make rational decisions about the caliber and structure of songs. Sure it's only an opinion, but it's an opinion that isn't biased by a sense of pride of creating something.

That just isn't true. He might not have any pride of creating the music, but sure as shit he'll have some pride about the way he's manipulating the audio!

The thing about music is.... it's the collaboration of a variety of subjective sources, to create something that will be listened to in a very subjective way. No two pairs of ears are the same, no two rooms are the same, no two stereo setups are the same, so inherently in music there is ALWAYS a subjective element - no mattter how detached from the band you are.

And this is why we're all so passionate about music.

 

[LeSedna]

I can totally understand the band's side on this topic you're debating. If I would come to an AE with the material I have written for years, maybe in some places his ideas would be nice, and maybe in other it would piss me off, and in the end of the day, I'm the one paying for a service. And the AE is certainly not always right ! For example, in most very extreme music, I would have a tendency to make certain choices of production that wouldn't maybe please the very extreme metal fans, because that's not my direct speciality. There is experience, right, but the band is not necessary retarded when it wants to make some weird choices. Maybe these weird choices are what brought it to success with his first album and brought it the money to book the recording of a second one.

This is not likely to be the case most of the time, but that's an understandable point of view.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Not to be the rain on your parade, but what if your first CD of material ends up getting canned by your critics and fans alike, will you still release the "other" two CD's worth of songs you once though were great because you had "all the time in the world to write them" or will you rethink things and rethink your bands writing process and try and deliver something your fans will love with the knowledge of the material that did not work?

Just a though on the writing 3 CD's worth of material - ultimately only 10-12 of 30 songs will make your first album meaning the other 18-20 are filler and stuff you felt not worthy of your initial release. Not sure I would use your method.

As always individual mileage may vary.

Interesting you say this. While by and large it's true that the extra tracks are just filler, sometimes I'm pretty surprised when a band throws in some bonus tracks on a particular version of an album, tracks that were never intended to make the final cut, sometimes being tracks just as good, sometimes even better than the original set of songs on the album.
An alternative rock band I've been listening to a lot seems to have done this, I love the bonus tracks that never made the original cut as much as the rest of the album.
Again, all a matter of perspective and subjectivity

 

[Loki Laufeyiarson]

That's because sometimes songs don't make it to the album not because they're not good enough, but because they don't fit the picture or the "story-line" of the album.

 

[JeffTD]

That just isn't true. He might not have any pride of creating the music, but sure as shit he'll have some pride about the way he's manipulating the audio!

But that's an after-the-fact argument, when his opinion on the music will come from before anything final even gets recorded, in pre production. Not to mention that you can and should have pride in manipulating audio on shitty, shitty songs - most of us do that every day. The quality of the songwriting won't affect that, so it's not like he's biased in that direction.

There is nothing more depressing than sitting behind a desk tracking good musicians and not only knowing but being constantly reminded that the songs could be SO much better than they actually are.