"Big" Sounding Vocals

[silverwulf]

So I was curious to know what techniques everyone has used (or finds themselves using most often) in order to get some "big" sounding vocals? Of course there's hardly anything you'd do every time, so I'm just trying to generalize and find methods you find yourself using more than most. After talking with a lot of guys, some things I've heard are:

Have the vocalist double himself on everything; tuck it under the lead vox

Double specific phrases or choruses; tuck it under the lead vox

Pan some doubled/background vox about 45% left/right, others as far as 100% left/right

Double the background vox and tuck them about 6db lower under the original background vox


Etc...What are some things you find yourself doing to acheive bigger vocals? Would you say that you commonly have a vocalist double himself all the way through, or do you find you have him just double specific phrases? Do you pan additional background vox as far as 45% up to 100% wide, or do you like to keep them closer to center? Do you like to compress vocals on the way in, or save that for mixing?

Just wanted to get a vocal discussion going here...

 

[NK]

I'm not much of a fan of doubling vocals all the way through a song. I think it can take away the character of a single voice. Having said that, many singers feel a bit self-conscious using only a single vocal, so I work with them to make sure we get a really strong performance on the main vox. Personality is very important to me and I feel that doubling blurs that personality and makes it sound more like a block.

Of course, it's always possible to add doubling, or harmonies etc. to other parts of the song to help build sections, change textures etc. That can work well. The wider you pan stuff the more you'll notice timing issues, so bear that in mind if you want to use that type of treatment.

I don't have any specific things I do. They all depend on the project. Some albums need an intimate vibe, so I'll work with the singer on really close micing techniques, for breath and vibe etc. Choosing the right mic is very important of course, and that can vary a lot according to the singer's voice, the nasal content of their head voice sound, and also the amount of sibilance they tend to produce. The wrong mic can really magnify unpleasant frequencies that you might end up having to wrestle with during the mix to smooth out etc. so that's a very important concern.

I'll usually compress or limit a vocal very slightly on the way in, just to avoid any nasty peaks that might render it unusable due to distortion...nothing radical in other words. That way I can do what I need on the mix without having to work with a vocal that's already been really compressed.

 

[Ermz]

I've found that a lot of how large a vocal sounds is contigent on the signal chain going into your recorder and also (majorly) the vocalist's technique. If they have a small and tiny voice, you can run them through all large diaphragm Neumann's and great river pres in the world but they're still ultimately going to sound small.

There was a session I did a few months ago (more a 'demo' type thing - it was actually my first ever real session) where the vocalist is a complete monster. We set him up in front of the best mic we had available (some low-end Shure piece of crap) and single tracked a majority of it and he sounded huge, simply because that's exactly how he sounded in the room.

When it comes to dealing with crappy vocalists, I suppose you end up having to try everything. Various different pieces of gear on the way in, compression and de-essing afterwards, doing 3 takes, maybe band-passing the mids on a few of them, distorting them then adding a ton of verb just to add as much space as you can. Anything that will hide the character of their voice

 

[NK]

Moonlapse..

I think it's always good judgment to assess talent from the root. Therefore, someone with a tentative, mousey voice will most probably never really sound that powerful and dominating, unless you employ studio tricks, and even then...it's really not a guarantee

As far as fingers go ....the sound comes directly from the musician. That's what I love most about music - the fact that everyone plays...they pour out their soul and all the time they have available they dedicate to their craft.

This is especially true for vocals - it's wonderful to have the power of the vocal give you goosepimples (goosebumps) and subsequently capture great results. I'm sorry but I've really never had a carbon copy "metal" approach to recording vocals - for me every situation calls for different treatment. Every person who sings sounds different, so some microphones work better than others for each situation. I'll never go into a vocal session with only one mic assuming that IT will work - that is really nothing short of professional suicide.

 

[sorceron]

interesting stuff

 

[silverwulf]

Some very informative stuff here. Can someone talk about the differences you notice when when tracking vocals with a standard mic position (ground up on a stand), versus using a hanging mic in front of the vocalist? I've never tried both before (never tried a hanging mic), so I'm curious to hear what type of differences this method should typically yield?

I'll likely be starting to track a modern rock band in the vein of Nickelback/Alter Bridge soon, and the vocalist has a pretty powerful voice. I'm just trying to do some homework before hand and stock up on techniques to try when recording them.

Thanks for all the input!

 

[NK]

I think the main reason for hanging a mic on front of a vocalist is when using a big boom stand, which is often more insulated from vibration, so it's probably better if the singer is standing on a wooden floor for example, which might transmit low rumbles, which would possibly be more noticeable on a floor standing mic. The boom stands are also on the floor, but due to their size they can be further away from the singer, and are often on big rubber wheels, thus affording more vibration-free recording.

If you don't have a long boom stand, a similar result can be achieved by using a suspension mount, which hangs the mic within a cleverly-designed cradle of elastic cords that keep the mic from picking up lots of the vibration transmitted through the floor into the base of the mic stand.

I would think the best results, if you have a hollow floor that is, would probably be achieved by using a suspension mount attached to a long boom stand. That way you would get the least vibration.

From a sonic standpoint, the mic should be in the same place in relation to the singer's mouth, so apart from having less low end rumble (should there be any at all), there's probably no other difference in the sound when using a hanging mic as opposed to a floor standing mic.

Also, make sure the singer is standing on something that prevents him/her from making other noises, like tapping their feet on a wood floor. A small carpet for them to stand on will help this. Also, make sure they remove any noisy jewellery as well. A more dead room will reduce this, but while it might be less problematic from an engineer's standpoint, it isn't necessarily the most fun for the singer to sing in.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Also, make sure the singer is standing on something that prevents him/her from making other noises, like tapping their feet on a wood floor.

Haha, how many times did I have to ask the singer to stop tapping the tempo with their hands on their legs :Smug: (even though they realise this is gonna be recorded since 5 minutes before, they were amazed at how loudly they could hear their saliva's bubbles... )

Therefore, someone with a tentative, mousey voice will most probably never really sound that powerful and dominating, unless you employ studio tricks, and even then...it's really not a guarantee.

What kind of tricks are you talking about ? I'm a very mousey vocalist myself . Eq ? Formant modification ? Also, did you try the Antares AVOX Vocal Kit ?

Thanks !

 

[NK]

What kind of tricks are you talking about ? I'm a very mousey vocalist myself . Eq ? Formant modification ? Also, did you try the Antares AVOX Vocal Kit ?

Thanks !

Just the normal ones to thicken vocals, as already mentioned in the thread. There are also other ways, using effects etc. to fatten things up, but they only work up to a point, and too much effect always sounds iffy, unless you're going for that sort of thing. I remember that whenever I was working on vocals with Phil Collins how he liked to have the harmoniser/ddl on his voice all the time, just to increase his comfort level of how he sounded. He hated his voice to be naked, and subsequently used that sort of effect for years. Hey it worked for him!

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Well that's (not liking our voices) something I share with Phil Collins then (that and the hair cut I'm afraid ...). I remember reading an interview, years and years ago, where he stated that he only recorded through one microphone, that whenever he tried other ones it didn't sound like "him". Is this true ? And if so, do you know which mic it is ? Oh and to ask again, did you try the Antarex AVOX Vocal Kit ?

 

[NK]

Hmm..and I always thought your avatar was you...

I think I only ever recorded Phil with a Neumann, either a 67 or an 87. I know that on two occasions the 87 was by far the best mic I had available. I'm not sure what Hugh ended up using for him over the years though.

I haven't used the AVOX kit. What is it?

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Hmm..and I always thought your avatar was you...

HAHAHA, I have this quite often Even people contacting me on MSN or AIM trying to hit on me !!! Poor little boys . FYI this is Floor Jansen, the singer of dutch band AFTER FOREVER (that I'm gonna see next week in my town by the way). I can hardly remember why I have this as an avatar, I remember it all started with a picture of Simone Simons (from dutch (yes, again) band EPICA). Anyway, maybe I should change...

So, is it you on your avatar ?

I think I only ever recorded Phil with a Neumann, either a 67 or an 87. I know that on two occasions the 87 was by far the best mic I had available. I'm not sure what Hugh ended up using for him over the years though.

Funnily while I was quite aware of your metal side (Queensryche, Nile, Nevermore, Scorpions, Cannibal Corpse, Spiral Architect, Deicide, Dokken, FM, Judas Priest, Lynch Mob, Shadow Gallery, Flotsam etc etc...), I didn't know you worked with "pop stars" (if I can call them like that), so I inquired a bit and Oh My God !!!

Peter Gabriel, David Bowie, Elton John, Phil Collins, Queen, Supertramp, Julien Clerc (hahaha, not so famous but french nonetheless ), Michel Polnareff, Thin Lizzy, Yes, Rolling Stones, Magma, Gary Moore, Stephane Grappelli, Sex Pistols, Gentle Giant, Kansas...

I haven't used the AVOX kit. What is it?

It's a plugin suite that "allows you to sound like all the voices in your head" (hmmmm...). Some of its feature are quite ok (like "Choir") but I didn't find much use for the others, that's why I asked if you've used it before. Here are more infos :
http://www.antarestech.com/products/avox.shtml

Cheers

 

[NK]

Thanks Brett,

Actually my biggest albums were pop albums. I did three albums with Hall and Oates in the early 80s (co-produced and engineered). Between them they sold over 30 million copies.

I'll check out the plugins. There are many voices in my head... I just have to find out who they are.

Also, where is your town? I used to live in Paris, back in the 70s. Loved it!

 

[BenMech]

Which H&O albums were yours, Neil?

 

[silverwulf]

All this talk about Hall & Oats now has "Maneater" stuck in my head...damn you, Neil...

 

[NK]

Which H&O albums were yours, Neil?

Voices, Private Eyes and H2O. Also, as a direct result of those three, 6 songs on Rock and Soul Part 1.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Actually my biggest albums were pop albums. I did three albums with Hall and Oates in the early 80s (co-produced and engineered). Between them they sold over 30 million copies.

Mmmm, never heard about this band, how weird is that ?!

I'll check out the plugins. There are many voices in my head... I just have to find out who they are.

lol ! I'd like a plugin who could make me sing like Peter Gabriel, Tori Amos, Russell Allen or Devin Townsend... Still waiting for it...

Also, where is your town? I used to live in Paris, back in the 70s. Loved it!

I live in Montpellier. It's in the very south of France, near the Mediterranean see, very VERY nice city. I love Paris but don't like spending more than 2 or 3 weeks over there, big city life is not good for the nerves . I used to live in Provence, in the Luberon, and I miss the country life, where you can go out of your house and just hear dogs, birds, and the wind, or play with a ball in the garden, or see the stars at night... So peaceful...

 

[silverwulf]

Mmmm, never heard about this band, how weird is that ?!

You should definitely check them out if you like pop music. It's got that 80's vibe, but the melodies and hooks are infectious and get stuck in your head for days. Here's links to some of the videos...good 'ole 80's...


http://youtube.com/w/Hall-and-Oates---Maneater?v=gr8AaLdgqz4&search=hall and oats

http://youtube.com/w/Hall-and-Oates---Private-Eyes?v=jXI3cP4-3NQ&search=hall and oats

http://youtube.com/w/Hall-&-Oates--...No-Can-Do)?v=6bGt-hJzKw0&search=hall and oats

 

[NK]

Brett,

I'd be willing to bet you know some of the tunes from the albums I did with them (or even some that I didn't work on). They had 5 #1 singles, 2 #2, and a total of 11 top 10 singles from just the albums I worked on. I have gold and platinum albums from 7 countries just from H&O, so I think it might be possible that you've heard them. That being said, France has its own market when it comes to pop music, something I discovered when I lived there.

Provence...ah...I loved it down there. I did some work at Chateau Miraval in 1985. Lovely place - studio wasn't in the best shape but the ambience was fabulous.

 

[NK]

You should definitely check them out if you like pop music. It's got that 80's vibe, but the melodies and hooks are infectious and get stuck in your head for days. Here's links to some of the videos...good 'ole 80's...


http://youtube.com/w/Hall-and-Oates---Maneater?v=gr8AaLdgqz4&search=hall and oats

http://youtube.com/w/Hall-and-Oates---Private-Eyes?v=jXI3cP4-3NQ&search=hall and oats

http://youtube.com/w/Hall-&-Oates--...No-Can-Do)?v=6bGt-hJzKw0&search=hall and oats

Heh...glad you like them. Fantastic songs. Not metal though is it?

:Spin: :Spin: