Bill Ward Fired from Black Sabbath by...

[SomeGuyDude]

Can't blame the drummer for Tony's dearth of writing ideas. The classic Black Sabbath sound is defined by the songwriting of Tony Iommi and the interplay of Iommi's riffing and Ozzy's vocals, and their concept is driven by Geezer's lyrics. Bill Ward simply didn't have the same significance and impact on the band (and metal) that the other original members did, and his demand to be treated as an equal is laughable. Ultimately, Ward isn't a unique percussion stylist—or even a mildly unusual one. He is the very definition of "replaceable."

So when Ward gets replaced and the band sucks, you claim it's because of Tony's "dearth" of ideas? Wow, you're just getting dumber and dumber.

Go back and listen to the original few Sabbath albums. Ward's blues-inspired playing that danced around with Tony's riffs is what did it. Downplaying his contributions so hard makes me think you have a vested interest in this. Are you a spokesperson by chance?

 

[The Butt]

Can't blame the drummer for Tony's dearth of writing ideas. The classic Black Sabbath sound is defined by the songwriting of Tony Iommi and the interplay of Iommi's riffing and Ozzy's vocals, and their concept is driven by Geezer's lyrics. Bill Ward simply didn't have the same significance and impact on the band (and metal) that the other original members did, and his demand to be treated as an equal is laughable. Ultimately, Ward isn't a unique percussion stylist—or even a mildly unusual one. He is the very definition of "replaceable."

No, you're actually fucking wrong. Songs like War Pigs, Sweet Leaf, The Wizard, Black Sabbath... they would've fucking SUCKED with a different drummer.

Bill's loose, jazzy style of drumming is part of why the early songs have so much fucking energy. Bill has contributed just as much to the Sabbath sound as Tony, Geezer, and Ozzy, and if you disagree, then I'm sorry you are deluded.

bs sucks and always has.

fag

 

[SomeGuyDude]

It legit pisses me off that no one gives Bill Ward credit for how important he was to that sound. Early Sabbath songs would have been drone pieces of shit if it weren't for him, just look at how slow and simplistic a lot of the riffs were. And he did it on this tiny-ass drum kit, no less.

 

[The Butt]

Yeah, Bill was a fucking beast, a total manimal on the skins. Not regarding him as a significant or equal member is just total idiocy.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

Just goes to show how little respect drummers get in the eyes of the masses.

 

[The Butt]

The drummers never get invited to any of the parties. :[

 

[Panzer Meyer]

So when Ward gets replaced and the band sucks, you claim it's because of Tony's "dearth" of ideas? Wow, you're just getting dumber and dumber.

Go back and listen to the original few Sabbath albums. Ward's blues-inspired playing that danced around with Tony's riffs is what did it. Downplaying his contributions so hard makes me think you have a vested interest in this. Are you a spokesperson by chance?

Ward's slow lazy fills and bog-standard rock timekeeping added nothing to Black Sabbath that couldn't be duplicated by any asshole dragged from pretty much any low rent bar band on any given Saturday night in a small town. He wasn't a creative contributor to the band, and a band member that doesn't contribute creatively has to bring something pretty fucking extraordinary—like Ozzy's stage presence and wildly distinctive voice—to be anything but replaceable. Ward's style is not unique. It isn't technically impressive or even distinctive. He didn't write the songs. He didn't write the lyrics. He has no charisma to speak of. He brought nothing to the table that couldn't have easily been duplicated by someone else. Sorry, but facts are facts. He isn't a co-equal member of Black Sabbath. He was the Ringo, and he was just along for the ride.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

Just goes to show how little respect drummers get in the eyes of the masses.

Drummers are far and away the least essential part of any metal band. Sorry, but again, facts are facts.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

It legit pisses me off that no one gives Bill Ward credit for how important he was to that sound. Early Sabbath songs would have been drone pieces of shit if it weren't for him, just look at how slow and simplistic a lot of the riffs were. And he did it on this tiny-ass drum kit, no less.

Ward kept time (barely adequately, but he kept it) and popped in lazy fills where directed by Iommi. Congratulations! That makes him at least as important to the Black Sabbath sound as I am.

 

[Kara-Shehr]

Sharon is a cunt plain and simple, which is why this news doesn't surprise me in the least bit.

 

[The Butt]

Ward kept time (barely adequately, but he kept it) and popped in lazy fills where directed by Iommi. Congratulations! That makes him at least as important to the Black Sabbath sound as I am.

As I said before...

I am sorry you are deluded. Or maybe you're just entirely deaf? I don't know. Either way, something's not right.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

I'm starting to think this Panzer guy is just expert-level trolling this thread. There's no way anyone's THAT idiotic. Actually, wait, I can play this game, too:

Tony Iommi's riffs are so simplistic that the majority of 13-year-old kids who get a Squier Strat for Xmas can play them. Iron Man? War Pigs? Paranoid? If you have one finger you can play those within a half hour of getting a guitar. Not to mention his solos are so choppy and haphazard that all they add to the song is extra time.

Ozzy's credentials as a lead singer are awful, as evidenced by how pussy and lame his solo career was. On his own, he sang about coming home to mama and "maybe it's not too late to learn how to love and forget how to hate". Not that he was actually a good vocalist anyway, if he hadn't bitten the heads off of a dove and a bat or pissed on the Alamo no one would have given a crap. I was unaware that Steve-O could have been legendary if he'd warbled into a microphone for his main career and did the stunts on the side.

I like this game.

 

[Onder]

Drummers are far and away the least essential part of any metal band. Sorry, but again, facts are facts.

This might be true with Sabbath but definitely not with all metal bands. Then again, it's very subjective.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

This might be true with Sabbath but definitely not with all metal bands. Then again, it's very subjective.

Part of what distinguishes "metal" from "rock" is the decreased significance of percussion in the former. Metal is all about the guitar line and the underlying melody, and with each successive wave of metal, percussion receded further into the background, until, with the advent of metal in its fully evolved form (death and black metal), percussion, regardless of its technical complexity, was reduced to an ambient pulse, and rhythmic dynamism, when needed, was provided by rhythm guitar rather than drums.

It's telling that drummers can be adequately replaced by a machine.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

It's also telling that a guitarist can be replaced by a synth, that a bassist isn't necessary at all, and a vocalist can be replaced by a dog.

Also, if we're talking about contributions to the band, need I point out that Heaven & Hell (aka Sabbath without Ozzy) was fucking awesome, and Ozzy solo is wimp bullshit? Listen to their respective latest singles, "Bible Black" vs "Scream".

Finally, and I'm tired of saying this, but the drummer makes as much difference as the rest of the band. That's especially true of a band like Sabbath that ISN'T largely relying on blast beats and double bass. We're not talking AC/DC here. Even when Appice played OLD Sabbath tunes it wasn't nearly as good.

Black Sabbath was a group effort. Making Ward take less pay and reduced billing is disrespectful, and you're a dumbass for suggesting he wasn't a critical member of the band.

 

[Der Morgenstern]

Part of what distinguishes "metal" from "rock" is the decreased significance of percussion in the former. Metal is all about the guitar line and the underlying melody, and with each successive wave of metal, percussion receded further into the background, until, with the advent of metal in its fully evolved form (death and black metal), percussion, regardless of its technical complexity, was reduced to an ambient pulse, and rhythmic dynamism, when needed, was provided by rhythm guitar rather than drums.

It's telling that drummers can be adequately replaced by a machine.

And guitar riffs can be layered and reproduced via computer software. You don't actually have a fucking point.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

And guitar riffs can be layered and reproduced via computer software. You don't actually have a fucking point.

Yeah, you can take prerecorded guitar lines, mix them, layer them and sequence them, but that still requires a human guitarist at some point in the process, and they don't allow for much real time improvisation. Drum machines don't require the intervention of an actual drummer at any point, and can easily be programmed on the fly for improvisational purposes. They can provide all of the functions of a drummer, even in an impromptu setting.

They also replace a drummer at a discount. Decent sequencing software and the equipment needed to make effective use of it for live performance is more expensive than the alternative of just hiring a guitarist.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

It's also telling that a guitarist can be replaced by a synth

You still have to have someone to, you know, play the synth. You don't need anyone to play the drum machine.

Also, if we're talking about contributions to the band, need I point out that Heaven & Hell (aka Sabbath without Ozzy) was fucking awesome, and Ozzy solo is wimp bullshit?

Leaving aside the dubious notion that Heaven & Hell was "fucking awesome" (a statement that makes sense only if you're using "fucking awesome" to mean "boring, trite, and phoned in for cash"), not to mention the fact that the H & H drummer was, in fact, the very same Vinny Appice you have consistently maligned elsewhere (incidentally, he was behind the kit for the best of the original Dio-era albums, Mob Rules), the point you've made has no relevance at all to the issue at hand. We're talking about the contributions of various members to the success of the original incarnation of Black Sabbath. Dio-era Sabbath and H & H have fuck all to do with that question.

Finally, and I'm tired of saying this, but the drummer makes as much difference as the rest of the band.

No, he doesn't. Remove the guitars or the vocals, and you fundamentally alter the meaning (and even the genre) of the work. Remove the drums and all you've done is...remove the drums.

Black Sabbath was a group effort.

Creatively, Black Sabbath wasn't a group effort: it was solely the work of Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler, who wrote all of the songs. Ozzy's unique vocal sound and his abilities both as a frontman and a master of hype production were instrumental in the band's commercial success. Remove any of those three guys from the original Sabbath lineup and the whole project is DOA. Remove Bill Ward and, at worst, you get a band that is marginally less successful, but probably doesn't miss a beat at all. His contributions just weren't as significant as the contributions made by the other members, so why should he be treated as co-equal with those who brought more to the table (and, frankly, STILL bring more to the table)?

 

[-CC-]

This Panzer Meyer guy needs to stop posting.

 

[Panzer Meyer]

This Panzer Meyer guy needs to stop posting.

Do you get butthurt every time someone disagrees with you on the internet? How life must suck...