Black Metal views on satanism

[Ása Thor]

Sorry if this has been done, but lately I've been wondering the following to myself;

There are basically two types of satanism; LaVeyan and "traditional". LaVeyan being the Church of Satan and believeing that Satan is an untapped source of power in nature, and "traditional" being the belief that Satan is living and breathing, and nothing but cruel and evil.

The Black Metal scene, or the early one anyways, spoke out against the Church of Satan, saying they were Christians using the name "Satan" as a provoking method to get attention. They considered themselves as good, and Christians evil. The Black Metallers wanted to be nothing but evil so they worshipped the "living" Satan. But this is where I wonder;

Black Metal says that LaVeyan Satanism only call themselves satanists because it's funny and provoking. I have read the Satanic Bible and it says, (somewhere near the beginning, I believe) that Satanic ideologies have always existed, but were never formulated into a common religion. This would imply that LaVey's works were based on ancient Satanic religions, which would mean this has always been Satanism and the Church of Satan didn't call themselves Satanists simply because it was provoking, but because that is truly what Satanism is.

I am not familiar with the history of "traditional" Satanism, where it came from, etc. Was LaVeyan Satanism derived from this? I don't get it. It wouldn't make sense because apparently the "Real Satan" is evil and no good (LaVeyan Satanism) could ever come of it.

So in the end, can only one of these be the "real" Satanism? If LaVey truly based his works on ancient beliefs, then the Church of Satan would be the right one. But then where the Hell did the Satan worshipped in Black Metal come from?

-Joel

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

we already have a Satanism thread

www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220536

 

[Kenneth R.]

and as I've stated many times in that one, both of those versions of satanism (which accounts for more or less all of it) have serious flaws.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

and as I've stated many times in that one, both of those versions of satanism (which accounts for more or less all of it) have serious flaws.

the biggest flaw would be that they are just re-inforcing Judeo-Christianity which is nothing more than a coping mechanism for the finality of death and the crappiness of life

 

[Kenneth R.]

so sayeth the unbelievers. However, you make a decent point that so-called "traditional" satanism is merely taking the other side as a believer in Biblical events. Given such a point of view, why take the losing side? Have traditional satanists read any of the passages in which God defeats satan again and again?

considering the other approach as invented by LaVey, as a pseudo religion, it consists of primarily a social focus. It encourages primal nature, and invites adherents to "take" whatever they have the power to, to horde their own little fortresses and discourages pity, most forms of compassion, or cooperative works. Applied to a society as a whole, this philosophy utterly fails to sustain itself as it encourages in-fighting, anarchy, and does not further science or improve social conditions.

hence my original post: both aspects of satanism are unworkably stupid.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

why take the losing side? Have traditional satanists read any of the passages in which God defeats satan again and again?

well i'm reminded of a quote "if i have to starve to death to get into heaven, I'm gonna eat lunch and go to hell" i can't remember who i'm quoting, but i think Satanism is clearly suppossed to be a way to escape the frustration of obeying the supposedly hard to follow rules of Christianity. Satanism is clearly based on the ideas "sin is fun" "live for the moment" etc etc etc

 

[Kenneth R.]

Which is precisely why, by throwing down restraint, it could never function in society.

 

[Birkenau]

Well none of the Abrahamic religions really function in society either...

 

[Kenneth R.]

Well none of the Abrahamic religions really function in society either...

describe to me how Christianity, at its core philosophies (not the warped misinterpretive modern version), fails to generate a positive and productive social environment? In fact, considering major world religions, any one of them would provide a stable society. The catch is that not everyone believes the same thing, so we have pointless, idiotic wars over who is right, when likely no one knows everything. Such as that is, I again call on satanism as the only "religion" of sorts that utterly fails to provide its adherents with the tools to form a constructive culture.

 

[harryhash]

describe to me how Christianity, at its core philosophies (not the warped misinterpretive modern version), fails to generate a positive and productive social environment? In fact, considering major world religions, any one of them would provide a stable society. The catch is that not everyone believes the same thing, so we have pointless, idiotic wars over who is right, when likely no one knows everything. Such as that is, I again call on satanism as the only "religion" of sorts that utterly fails to provide its adherents with the tools to form a constructive culture.

I don't think it would fail to produce a constructive culture, rather a very different one. Obviously, morals would be completely different, and its hard to see Capitalism even remotely working. On the other hand, however, a dynamic and very creative culture could possibly ensue. It all depends to what extent people take their anarchy. Anarchy can work in theory, just like communism. If idealists are forming anarchous states, populated only by idealists who share the same point of view, there is no reason it couldn't work.

 

[Dän]

Communism can never work - the only way it can is if we are living in a perfect euphoria where everything is unlimited; which obviously is impossible. It cant even work in theory because people like me and millions of others want to be better than each other - we want rewards for our works; thats the idea of working harder and longer, to earn more money and get a better lifestyle, thats why capitalism does work

 

[harryhash]

Communism can never work - the only way it can is if we are living in a perfect euphoria where everything is unlimited; which obviously is impossible. It cant even work in theory because people like me and millions of others want to be better than each other - we want rewards for our works; thats the idea of working harder and longer, to earn more money and get a better lifestyle, thats why capitalism does work

And hence I used the term 'idealists', as in those who would be willing to set aside their greed for the common good/support those less able than themselves. Obviously, this is never going to happen. But in theory, it could, hence communism works IN THEORY.

 

[derek]

Communism does not even work in theory. The idea seems appealing, but theoretically it doesnt quite flow.

I need to re-read some of the stuff i've wrote about this before...i'll post later on when im less sleepy and more aware.

 

[Dän]

^^^ I agree that it doesnt work in theory, like i said above, the basic reason why is because. I want.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Even theoretically, a satanic society would eventually be consumed by whoever had the means and desire to "take" the most of what he or she could. Others who opposed this one would be dealt with... It's not very conducive of positive social environments, I say. When you apply the basic principles of it, you find that there is hardly a shred of encouragement towards relationships and goals not of self interest. Thus, it is the absolute opposite of idealist communisim, and also fails...

 

[tr_ofdallas]

so judeo-christianity doesn't work
satanism doesn't work
so what about moralistic relatavism or relativity or whatever the hell it's called?

 

[Dän]

How bout capitalism - been proven to work for years

 

[derek]

Guys...If this thread is gonna stay open, then you'll need to flesh out your posts a little, so the discussion can continue.

cheers,

-FP

 

[Kenneth R.]

so judeo-christianity doesn't work
satanism doesn't work
so what about moralistic relatavism or relativity or whatever the hell it's called?

Actually this isn't a good summary of my points -

I argued that an authentic Christian society could work, and even a moderately diluted one. However, satanism or communism are just unfeasable, as shown by my above comments, and by history. USSR anyone?

 

[Birkenau]

Actually this isn't a good summary of my points -

I argued that an authentic Christian society could work, and even a moderately diluted one. However, satanism or communism are just unfeasable, as shown by my above comments, and by history. USSR anyone?

Middle Ages anyone?