The problem is that jazz has more subgenres than metal so when you say "jazz" you could be referring to any number of things. Pat Metheny, for example is going to have a completely different impact on a different set of listeners than Holdsworth, or Joe pass, or Lenny Breau, etc. If we're specifically referring to fusion players, then Holdsworth is at the top with a select few who have had such an impact (McLaughlin for example), but even if we are talking jazz as a whole, Holdsworth is definitely up there.
Brett Garsed is amazing
- Thread starter schenkadere
- Start date
Agreed. As much as I love certain guitar players from just a guitarists' perspective, I'm as quick as anyone to skip over tracks...or entire albums...that don't grab me in terms songwriting or musicality. Guthrie is one of a handful who, IMO, have the songwriting chops to match everything else (which says a lot when we're talking about someone like Guthrie).
progmetaldan
Member
Right, but I assumed since we were talking about "modern" players with more of a fusion feel(less traditional). I wouldn't draw comparisons between Holdsworth and say Charlie Christian or Wes Montgomery...that would be silly.
Anyway...not really the original point...
Guthrie Govan!!!...oh wait...Brett Garsed!!!
No...you're definitely right on that point. That said I think even amongst modern players (let's say 70's and up, since we're already talking holdsworth) there are enough stylistic differences to make comparisons difficult. When you add in even more modern guys like Landau or Henderson...or even newer guys like Bryan Baker, it gets to be even more hairy. But to the original point....Holdsworth, as you rightly pointed out, is definitely up there. No question about it.
progmetaldan
Member
And yeah Brett Garsed still is amazing... Hopefully he makes it down to Adelaide for a fusion gig and a clinic soon... 
Or even... a Planet X gig...
Or even...
a Planet X gig... 
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Pat Matheny WOULD make my list. For Jazz. Schenk just made the error of saying "speed metal" for example when two other people are just talking about "metal". Possibly the same, but not necessarily.
progmetaldan
Member
Kenneth R.
Cináed
He's a talented guy who can also write great songs, and his influence is undeniable. Having all 3, he makes it on my list. Holdsworth is up there for fusion. These guys, Garsed and Guthrie, no pulse here. Flatlined.
We weren't talking about traditional jazz players...I only stated what I assumed was obvious. If I were to list great jazz players, Holdsworth wouldn't come to mind...as neither would Al DiMeola...I see fusion as a whole different animal. But...whatever.
Fusion is far more rock influenced IMO.
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
because this is obviously the end all and be all of opinions, check this list out here:
from http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/best_jazz/best_jazzguitar.html
1. Wes Montgomery
2. Django Reinhardt
3. Pat Metheny
4. Joe Pass
5. Charlie Christian
6. John McLaughlin
7. Allan Holdsworth
8. Grant Green
9. John Scofield
10. Jim Hall
They also have a separate side bar specifically for fusion. Holdsworth is #1 there
from http://digitaldreamdoor.nutsie.com/pages/best_jazz/best_jazzguitar.html
1. Wes Montgomery
2. Django Reinhardt
3. Pat Metheny
4. Joe Pass
5. Charlie Christian
6. John McLaughlin
7. Allan Holdsworth
8. Grant Green
9. John Scofield
10. Jim Hall
They also have a separate side bar specifically for fusion. Holdsworth is #1 there
noble savage
Member
Edge of Insanity is ranked as a fusion album!? It's a fine shred album, but T-Mac didn't explore (Heavily at least) fusion until Chromaticity.
It's a fine shred album, but T-Mac didn't explore (Heavily at least) fusion until Chromaticity.
Good list...except Mclaughlin and Holdsworth really don't fit. That list is as good as the Rolling Stone 100 best guitarists including Kurt Cobain and Joni Mitchell. I hate lists.
Robben Ford hasn't played jazz in ages...why is he on there?
Again....hate lists.
Robben Ford hasn't played jazz in ages...why is he on there?
Again....hate lists.
ABQShredHead
©1970
McLaughlin created fusion. He should warrant #1 as such.
And, like Michael, I hate lists too. Sco is worlds above Metheny, in my opinion.
And, like Michael, I hate lists too. Sco is worlds above Metheny, in my opinion.
ABQShredHead
©1970
I find it interesting that the list is based on musicians "chosen for their originality, versatility, impact & influence within the genre" and "for their innovations & the technical ability for improvisation & musical expression in addition to their compositional skill & creative inspiration"; yet, Joe Diorio, a renowned MIT teacher who has influenced myriad guitar players through that school, ranks only 33rd. I would rather see it as a list of "hey, you should check out these 100 cats because they're really awesome" instead of a ranking of one's opinions of contributions. Or even, "after thorough self analysis, I have compiled this ranked list of my jazz influences".
But, overall, I see too many fusion guys in there rather than straight-ahead jazzers, further establishing either the blurring of lines between the two genres or the ignorance of the two genres by the author. And I'm not sure why John Pizzarelli ranks above Bucky...
And Chet Atkins? Perhaps a time reference or a list of albums that fall into the jazz category is warranted.
But, overall, I see too many fusion guys in there rather than straight-ahead jazzers, further establishing either the blurring of lines between the two genres or the ignorance of the two genres by the author. And I'm not sure why John Pizzarelli ranks above Bucky...
And Chet Atkins? Perhaps a time reference or a list of albums that fall into the jazz category is warranted.
I'm with you.
Again...I hate lists.
I like your idea...check these guys out...not some flunkie stating who is "best".
Again...I hate lists.
I like your idea...check these guys out...not some flunkie stating who is "best".
Hmmm...while I agree with some things on that list, I disagree with too much of it for that to matter. Just some other quick points that I saw skimming through the thread:
-I wouldn't come close to putting Scofield above Metheny...and I like Scofield quite a bit (if you haven't heard the album they did together "i can see your house from here", or something like that, do so asap)
-+1 to "why the hell is Tony Macapline on there?". I like the guy's playing...but he shouldn't be on that list, IMO, and definitely not with that album
-Pizzarelli vs. Pizzarelli....both are killer players, but what John is missing in terms of influence (compared to his dad), he more than makes up for, and surpasses as far as I'm concerned, with his playing.
-I don't see anything on the list that states "traditional jazz"....just "jazz". It's an incredibly broad subject...broader than the terms "metal" or "rock". As incredibly different as some of these players are, I can't expect much else from such a wide-open criteria. As much as I hate the extraneous naming and defining of subgenres, you'd need them (or at least you'd have to specify time frames) to put together a good list like this. That said...add me to the "i hate lists" category
-a list of greatest jazz guitarists (especially if influence is being taken into acount) that doesn't include Freddie Green is an invalid list.
-mike stern not on the fusion list? wtf?
-I wouldn't come close to putting Scofield above Metheny...and I like Scofield quite a bit (if you haven't heard the album they did together "i can see your house from here", or something like that, do so asap)
-+1 to "why the hell is Tony Macapline on there?". I like the guy's playing...but he shouldn't be on that list, IMO, and definitely not with that album
-Pizzarelli vs. Pizzarelli....both are killer players, but what John is missing in terms of influence (compared to his dad), he more than makes up for, and surpasses as far as I'm concerned, with his playing.
-I don't see anything on the list that states "traditional jazz"....just "jazz". It's an incredibly broad subject...broader than the terms "metal" or "rock". As incredibly different as some of these players are, I can't expect much else from such a wide-open criteria. As much as I hate the extraneous naming and defining of subgenres, you'd need them (or at least you'd have to specify time frames) to put together a good list like this. That said...add me to the "i hate lists" category
-a list of greatest jazz guitarists (especially if influence is being taken into acount) that doesn't include Freddie Green is an invalid list.
-mike stern not on the fusion list? wtf?
Tony Macalpine? WTF +1 He's kind of Vai's second fiddle now isn't he?
Stern is on the "fusion musician" list.
Vernon Reid over Larry Carlton...that's rich.
I hate lists.
I missed vernon reid over larry carlton....damn
I double checked....Stern was excluded from the "top 10 fusion guitarists" list on the side of that page. He is on the main list though.
I double checked....Stern was excluded from the "top 10 fusion guitarists" list on the side of that page. He is on the main list though.
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