brexit

[SentinelSlain]

lol I don't wanna get mobbed by Anglophiles. But I wouldn't mind going on a holiday to LA.

@SentinelSlain
Interesting. I can see that but over-assuming in work haha, in work the Brits make drama based on really ridiculous stuff, like saying our Muslim workers are smelly and such when they aren't so the rest of them just assume they're smelly - or whatever else they make up - and we end up sacking them for just being really nasty sometimes. It's horrible. I've had foreign girls come up to me crying their eyes out before because they can't deal with the harassment at work.
The foreigners just work super hard all the time and mind their own business, and you have dickheads out the back slacking smoking cigs talking shit about them. It pisses me off to no end.

You employ people who go on about people stinking and I try and be super polite and civilized in interviews and struggle. Maybe I should assume more and be rude.

 

[Lunella]

Yes, because immigrants are always better people than the people in the countries they migrate to As for the 'smelly Muslim' thing, there is definitely some truth to this. I went to college in an area that had a lot of Muslim and/or middle eastern immigrants, and sometimes on the bus to class I would sit next to them. Occasionally (actually quite frequently tbh) they would smell really bad, and one time I actually had to refrain from gagging the smell was so bad. Im not going to make a broad generalization that they are all smelly, but god damn some of them smelled so bad that I had a hard time believing that they actually bathe at all.

I have seen it where they do actually stink but it's not that often, more or less in public places tbh. Like, you do actually have to check if there's a bad smell because it's considered "offensive" then brace yourself for a talk to tell them they stink and it's inappropriate for being in a working environment, which is super super awkward. But in that particular situation they didn't and it was literally just girls bickering with each other bullying the foreign girls, which actually happens a lot, it tends to be girls starting drama more so than the men but it's ALWAYS some racist ridiculousness.

@SentinelSlain

I don't do the Interviews but yeah, I was told it was pretty hard to tell who are idiots and such because everyone always puts on a good act in an interview then when they get to the job and the social aspect of it they start being really offensive which calls for me having to tell them off and be like YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IN A DIVERSE ENVIRONMENT lol. But thankfully they are starting worker trials now, they work 6 weeks and if we don't like em they're tossed back into the sea of people looking for a job.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Reduced sovereignty is a tangible consequence in itself. From a financial perspective: Government data shows a consistent net contribution from the UK to the EU to the tune of billions a year. While it is possible that some of that comes back in the form of business, the UK has actually been running a trade deficit with the EU for some time. Furthermore, it is likely most of any business "benefit" was sequestered within London. While one could argue that theoretically cheaper goods coming from the EU is another benefit, it's impossible to say at this point whether or not the UK could have similar prices while outside the EU.

The UK's annual trade deficit with the EU is $33B, quite small compared to the $350B a year the UK exports there. If the EU decides to raise tariffs on the UK, or exporting becomes more legally cumbersome with the loss of open borders, the trade deficit could get much worse.

UK financial services run about an $80B trade surplus. Losing the advantages of EU membership (i.e. UK banks not needing a physical presence in EU countries they do business with) presents a big downside for that surplus.

Won't someone ever think of the poor bankers? London was a financial hub prior to the EU. It is not impossible that it remains one.

If the EU starts requiring UK banks to have a physical presence outside London (meaning lower profitability for those banks), and other major European banks (i.e. Santander) no longer benefit from centering their operations in London, that greatly reduces London's status as a financial hub, and is a big loss for the UK's economy overall, not just for bankers.

 

[Dak]

The UK's annual trade deficit with the EU is $33B, quite small compared to the $350B a year the UK exports there. If the EU decides to raise tariffs on the UK, or exporting becomes more legally cumbersome with the loss of open borders, the trade deficit could get much worse.

UK financial services run about an $80B trade surplus. Losing the advantages of EU membership (i.e. UK banks not needing a physical presence in EU countries they do business with) presents a big downside for that surplus.

Could get worse. Not certainly. The UK has been shifting away from trading with the EU in the last few years. Raising tariffs on the UK would merely accelerate this. Furthermore, the ability to deal entirely independently would help minimize issues in shifting export target markets.

If the EU starts requiring UK banks to have a physical presence outside London (meaning lower profitability for those banks), and other major European banks (i.e. Santander) no longer benefit from centering their operations in London, that's a big loss for the UK's economy overall, not just for bankers.

This sounds suspiciously trickledownish.

 

[no country for old wainds]

it's definitely the poorer and less educated that are leaning more toward leave (and who are more upset about high immigration in general) and the more 'privileged' academic types voting remain for the most part. the latter are usually more eloquent but i'm not convinced they have much in the way of perspective or actual critical thinking, a lot of it comes across as regurgitated and short termist to me. i do know some people who dislike the EU quite strongly but voted 'remain' as the lesser of two evils (and one guy who refused to vote because he couldn't in good conscience support either camp).

generally i just don't think it was about the topic at hand though, it was more like a war between classes and people getting angry at the generalisations being made about them by those not like them, and all the misinformed fallacious arguments on both sides. lots of conformity too as sentinelslain said, but in my experience that's always prevalent everywhere regardless of education or wealth.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Could get worse. Not certainly. The UK has been shifting away from trading with the EU in the last few years. Raising tariffs on the UK would merely accelerate this. Furthermore, the ability to deal entirely independently would help minimize issues in shifting export target markets.

Shifting trade to other countries isn't that simple. It takes time to build customer relationships, and people in non-EU markets will trust incumbent businesses over newcomers (I sure as hell have no incentive to move my money to a UK bank). Other markets can present far more competition than UK businesses have dealt with up to now.

This sounds suspiciously trickledownish.

The health of the banking sector definitely impacts people at all levels. If the banks make less money, they pay less in taxes. They may tighten credit, or increase banking fees. A variety of businesses that benefit indirectly from London's finance workforce (hotels, restaurants, taxis, retailers, etc) could lose business. The effects are a little more than trickledownish.

 

[Einherjar86]

Sovereignty isn't all its cracked up to be. Hardly a reason to leave, unless of course you're consumed by rampant nationalism.

So. Here are the dead fathers.

 

[arg]

lol I don't wanna get mobbed by Anglophiles. But I wouldn't mind going on a holiday to LA.

fantastic, that's where i live. see you here!

 

[Dak]

Shifting trade to other countries isn't that simple. It takes time to build customer relationships, and people in non-EU markets will trust incumbent businesses over newcomers (I sure as hell have no incentive to move my money to a UK bank). Other markets can present far more competition than UK businesses have dealt with up to now.

I guess we all have different financial situations, but I can't imagine why I would ever need a UK bank in any scenario whatsoever. I don't see competition as a net negative.

The health of the banking sector definitely impacts people at all levels. If the banks make less money, they pay less in taxes. They may tighten credit, or increase banking fees. A variety of businesses that benefit indirectly from London's finance workforce (hotels, restaurants, taxis, retailers, etc) could lose business. The effects are a little more than trickledownish.

I imagine the short to medium term outlook is bearish; I think it's been pretty well agreed upon across the board with the informed exiters. Better than the long term bearishness of a being chained to a lurching regional bureaucratic golem.

 

[CiG]

Switzerland and Norway among many others have perfectly reasonable trade agreements set up with the EU and they're not members so the fear mongering about trade isolation is quite laughable.

Britain is not some insignificant civilisation, to suggest it will flail and sink without Brussels is beyond retarded.

Through talking to people at work (quite a variety of people though a good 3/4 are 'working class' and probably didn't go past GCSEs/O levels), reading shit on Facebook, watching the TV, listening to the radio and browsing and attempting to debate on various news sites my conclusion is that that's a load of shite.

Fair enough, in that case it's subjective. I see people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Douglas Murray, David Starkey, Peter Hitchens and so on having very well thought-out and eloquent reasons for leave and then I contrast that with morons like [insert useless celebrity here] giving really terrible reasons for remain. You can really look anywhere you want on this topic and have your views reinforced.

Nope. I'm saying that the white racists/bigots are being ridiculous right now after the vote, take this for example. This is why I mentioned earlier that foreigners were scared.
https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3

Anybody can cherrypick examples in order to construct a "reality."

Telling someone to "go back to Romania" for example doesn't even necessarily mean it was said by a white racist. So I have to say I'm antsy about your desperation to use generalisations here.

Sovereignty isn't all its cracked up to be. Hardly a reason to leave, unless of course you're consumed by rampant nationalism.

Or just consumed with EU cynicism, no need to demonise in such a rudimentary fashion.

Also what's your evidence to suggest that sovereignty isn't all it's cracked up to be/worth leaving the EU?

 

[Dak]

"Sovereignty ain't all that - please hand it over".

 

[Baroque]

Without knowing all the subtleties, if I were English I'd be inclined to vote leave. Independence > dependence, whether you are a dependent or depended on in most cases. And arg is right they were putting out more money than they were receiving. For what?

 

[Einherjar86]

"Without knowing all the subtleties..." That's the key, right there. The "leave campaign" relied on people not understanding the subtleties in order to get the vote passed. And the reason why the "remainers" (remainders...?) keep appealing to racism/xenophobia is because those were the primary ideological strategies used. White nativism works wonders when appealing to people's anger and frustration.

As far as the subtleties go, the truth is that the UK won't enjoy any economic advantages to leaving the EU, according to most analyses. They don't want to have to make the payments in order to trade with EU countries, they want to conduct such trades independently - but I don't think many Britons realize that in order to trade with countries that still belong to the EU, the UK will still have to pay the same fee, and they'll have to do it each time they want to enter into trade agreements. It'll cost a lot of money.

There's the possibility that Brexit leads to a domino effect in which several countries begin leaving the EU; but that's a serious gamble to make.

Alternatively, the UK could produce all the goods they need right at home. But let's face it, that's a nationalist fantasy and I'd like to see them try. If they can do that, then more power to them. Enjoy your isolation, England.

As far as sovereignty goes, it's an outdated concept that predates the ideology of post-industrial autonomy. No one "hands it over" because no one is taking it - the EU isn't a sovereign body. There is no sovereignty. Systems make their own decisions, as do countries, as do people. This doesn't mean anyone possesses sovereignty, so how can anyone "hand it over"?

 

[CiG]

White nativism is great at mobilising non-whites to support Brexit. Obviously.

 

[Dak]

I had a guy from originally from Ghana complain to me in like the first 5 minutes after meeting him that "It's so hard to get into medical school because of Indians (dot)." And he was talking about here in the US. It isn't only a white thing to not like immigrants. It isn't even only a native thing.

Sovereignty dispersed among a congress or council isn't quite the same as within an individual, but to not be superseded or vetoed legally is sovereignty."The authority of a state to govern itself".

 

[SentinelSlain]

Sovereignty and legitimacy are weird things. I'm neither for nor against them in general. I tend to think my culture would be better if the latter was kind of encoded into a kind of mandate of heaven belief that specified that our leadership cannot allow certain things to happen or they have to be replaced by better more able people. The people would have a duty to replace them, if such a failure occurred. This seems better than limited democracy in some ways.

 

[no country for old wainds]

regardless of whether their position is the correct one, the people who led the leave campaigns are beyond fucking retarded. they're already publicly backtracking on every promise they made, all trying to shirk the responsibility of pulling us out of this short-term mess and generally saying the dumbest things and looking like they've just shat themselves. i suspect another referendum now would result in a remain majority because it's quickly become abundantly clear how ill-prepared they are to deal with this (they were reportedly expecting cameron to deal with the fallout rather than just resign lol). meanwhile labour is deevolving into some really brutal in-fighting as lots of people make power plays.

 

[Einherjar86]

Sovereignty dispersed among a congress or council isn't quite the same as within an individual, but to not be superseded or vetoed legally is sovereignty."The authority of a state to govern itself".

What constitutes a state? A state is little more than an arbitrary measure of unification, and might consist of a multitude of possible combinations. Why not "the authority of a league of nations to govern itself"?

Sovereignty is a construction, and little more than an attempt to rationalize autonomous action as a preexisting feature of a social body, whether that body is a country, a state, a union, or even a human.

 

[Dak]

What constitutes a state? A state is little more than an arbitrary measure of unification, and might consist of a multitude of possible combinations. Why not "the authority of a league of nations to govern itself"?

Without bothering to quibble over semantic technicalities, that's the form for the EU of course. A majority of voting British rejected the league as providing sufficient benefit in exchange for even arguably merely another level of dilution of sovereignty.

Sovereignty is a construction, and little more than an attempt to rationalize autonomous action as a preexisting feature of a social body, whether that body is a country, a state, a union, or even a human.

And?

 

[Einherjar86]

Without bothering to quibble over semantic technicalities, that's the form for the EU of course. A majority of voting British rejected the league as providing sufficient benefit in exchange for even arguably merely another level of dilution of sovereignty.

Absolutely! It's just stupid appeal to one arbitrary measure of unification when arguing to abandon another. As no country said, the leave campaigns are "beyond fucking retarded." That's basically how I feel.

And?

And maybe people should think about that when they let appeals to sovereignty dissuade them from other models of political organization that are just as "sovereign." Kind of embarrassing for them, especially now that many of them are shaking their heads and going, "Wait, what the fuck did we just do? Explain to me again what 'the EU' is?"

But of course, the EU is obviously more corrupt and evil than the government of Britain. God save the Queen.