Building a new music industry?

Well awesome for you...and too bad for the musical community.
I would say this to you, you probably didn't consider the fact that we as a label and our artists would have worked hard to have these things removed would you? !

I don't really see how that's 'too bad for the musical community' seeing as how for years I used torrents for things that WEREN'T music, and downloading music doesn't mean you don't buy music. I buy plenty of music and spend even more money at shows. But you're welcome to draw whatever conclusions you'd like.

If you've been successfully able to find the time and remove over 500 torrents for a Halcyon Way album (because with the existing stats, that's how many would be needed to hit the 85k mark) from websites who have a history of noncooperation with the music biz...cool. You'd make a whole lot of money working with the RIAA if you choose to go down that path.
 
True...but all I can tell ya is that the numbers were what they were.....and Lance came on here and corroborated what I said. Glad you dug the album incidentally, bro! Also, not saying that HW is on the same level as BG, but that album has only been out a few months whereas "Manifesto" has been out over 2 years. And think about it....just as an aside. 14,500 torrents of the new BG @ $5/copy wholesale from the label to the distributor = $72,500 that the label lost on that one site. That would go a long way towards SOMETHING, whether it be support for BG, or money in the bank for other bands to be developed. Crazy numbers....

Are you playing any shows soon? Haven't seen you guys since 07 or 08, I think...definitely not with the new singer. I'd like to hear some of the new material live.


Even at $5/copy, that is a lot of money. The thing is though, who's to say people would have purchased the album in the first place were piracy not an option? A lot of anti-piracy people (not you, just a trend I've noticed in general) act like every download = a lost sale. But it's not like people are just sitting on a stockpile of money and downloading music for free because they would rather keep their money than get cool stuff. Some of those would have definitely resulted in a sale, but for sure not all of them. People have different motives for downloading music...it's unfair for anyone to just lump them all into one THIEVES, DAMN THIEVES group.
 
Regardless of what you think (and I agree with you on your points), there is something called "tact." Please consider using it occasionally as I consider you a valuable forum member. Otherwise, your message gets lost in the delivery.

Haha in my defense, I posted that in the morning at my crankiest state of mind! I should refrain from doing that. I suck.
 
People have different motives for downloading music...it's unfair for anyone to just lump them all into one THIEVES, DAMN THIEVES group.

I don't want to derail what is a very compelling discussion, but I'd like some clarification on that last point. If you're helping yourself to a commercially available product and not paying for it, how is it anything but theft?
 
I don't want to derail what is a very compelling discussion, but I'd like some clarification on that last point. If you're helping yourself to a commercially available product and not paying for it, how is it anything but theft?

Well like someone mentioned earlier, many times said products aren't really commercially available. Yeah, they're probably easily available in the US and parts of Europe, but in other parts of the world, not so much. As far as I know, there aren't any stats on where downloading is most prevalent. So that's one instance. There's also the try-before-you-buy downloaders who have been discussed to death on this board. People downloading out of print albums where the alternative would be to pay $60 on Ebay. And lastly, a download doesn't translate into a lost sale. There's no guarantee the person would have bought the album if they didn't have an internet connection.

I'm not saying every person who downloads music falls into one of those categories. I am saying that not everybody who downloads music falls into the whole 'destroying the music business' category.
 
I don't want to derail what is a very compelling discussion, but I'd like some clarification on that last point. If you're helping yourself to a commercially available product and not paying for it, how is it anything but theft?

Well for one thing, nothing is actually being physically taken. The copyright holder doesn't lose the copyright does he? Actually going to the record store and stuffing CDs in your pants and walking out is theft. Downloading an MP3, which makes a copy of a file, is not. However, it IS copyright infringement-- although not necessarily "theft."
 
So your idea is something technologists would have been well aware of a decade ago, and it never became a forgotten concept.
As I mentioned earlier, I didn't actually think I had solved the problem. My only contention with this part of our discussion is, the fact that RIA abandoned this idea 13 years ago, doesn't mean they made the right decision then, nor does it mean such a model wouldn't be more successful now.

I agree with your earlier point; the industry isn't the group of bumbling fools they're often painted to be. On the flipside, this is not a group whose collective decision making has left me wary of challenging their logic. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to advocate for the model I described. I'm merely trying to suggest that giving up may not be the best strategy.

"How many are downloading illegally" is a useless figure. What we need to know is "how many illegal downloads would be converted to purchases if illegal downloading was not possible?"
While it may be semantics, I would disagree that it's a useless number. If nothing else, it demonstrates just how widespread illegal downloading is.

Downloading is certainly a factor, and it may even be the biggest factor, but it's just hard to make a solid conclusion there from the data available.
A conclusion? Maybe not. An incredibly reasonable assumption? I believe so. As always, I'll remain open-minded. If someone can show me how some other factor or combination of factors, is having a bigger impact on sales than illegal downloads, I'll remain willing to accept that. Until that time, I'll call off the search for more complex answers where I feel none are needed.

As a side note, I did an interview with the guitar player from Hurt. Now granted, individual experiences are anecdotal, and don't represent evidence. That said, the experience he relayed is an interesting one. They sold 180,000 copies of their debut, without the benefit of successful single. Their second disc, contained the track "Ten Ton Brick", for which they shot a video, which went to #5 on the Billboard Rock chart. That album sold 70,000 copies. Despite their plummeting record sales, their crowds reflected the success of the single, not the falling record sales. And depite the falling sales, everyone seemed to know the words to all the new songs, not just the single.

If you're helping yourself to a commercially available product and not paying for it, how is it anything but theft?
In my mind, it all comes down to how the individual uses the download; as a preview or as a final product.
 
Are you playing any shows soon? Haven't seen you guys since 07 or 08, I think...definitely not with the new singer. I'd like to hear some of the new material live.


Even at $5/copy, that is a lot of money. The thing is though, who's to say people would have purchased the album in the first place were piracy not an option? A lot of anti-piracy people (not you, just a trend I've noticed in general) act like every download = a lost sale. But it's not like people are just sitting on a stockpile of money and downloading music for free because they would rather keep their money than get cool stuff. Some of those would have definitely resulted in a sale, but for sure not all of them. People have different motives for downloading music...it's unfair for anyone to just lump them all into one THIEVES, DAMN THIEVES group.

Hey man, last Atlanta show we did was in September, it was the CD release party. Did Florida Powerfest last month with Blind Guardian, and nothing booked currently because I'm getting through my health issues. We may be doing a show in early April at the Local and also have a few tours we're working on landing. Can't believe you haven't seen us in that long man!
 
And for whatever it's worth, the new Halcyon Way should get downloaded 85,000 time. It slays. Haven't figured out what my Top 10 of 2010 is yet, but I suspect it's in there. Nice work.

Thank you sir! =)

Got lots of cool stuff for 2011 in the works too, so stay tuned.....
 
I believe it really varies depending on who the artist, or label, or market is.

About time this was pointed out and a very good point at that. I agree with you fully Lance. And I also find it interesting how popular music is obviously being generalized in this debate and and that is a narrow and ignorant approach to every topic being discussed here. Just what you have pointed out is a very import factor.
That is all...
 
lol... I'm at a loss for words as to how ridiculous this is. Sorry, but it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever as evidenced by your whacky theories and delusion that you think bands should have to suck your musical wiener for money.

Do not want to egg the man on, but this is pretty damn funny. Someone will sig this sooner or later.
 
And I also find it interesting how popular music is obviously being generalized in this debate and and that is a narrow and ignorant approach to every topic being discussed here.
Bare in mind, both the topic at hand and the article referenced by the OP, was about the music industry as a whole and was not intended to be specific to any genre.
 
Do not want to egg the man on, but this is pretty damn funny. Someone will sig this sooner or later.

I think it's downright insulting to think that bands should be our butlers. For one thing, it's not like there haven't been companies that tried making money off of selling personalized band things to fans to very little success, and for another it's an incredibly shallow outlook on music. Music is art, whether people make money off it or not, and that's something that needs to be preserved regardless of the pace the industry is going.

But glad you thought I was funny. I don't take myself too seriously hahaha.
 
It appears everyone here agrees: There is too way too much music out there. What seems to be continuously overlooked on this subject is the "why" and "how". Once we narrow it down to the technology race and the issue of DIY, we all seem to jump onto the piracy subject out the gates again, but truthfully, this isn't "why" there is too much music - Yes, it's a problem, we can all agree on that as well, but it's not the actual "why" there is so much music out there.

It seems like you're talking about this "technology race" as something that you would like to stop or turn back if possible. I don't think that would be the right idea. First, it's not like there is some kind of thoughtless battle going on where bands are locked into a competition to race ahead of each other, without realizing that the race will destroy them all. Rather, technology has advanced on its own, and that has simply unlocked an existing desire in artists to record their work for posterity.

In this "free market" of music, I say the more output, the better. Put it all out there. Record it all. We don't need any gatekeepers on the front-end. Don't let anything stifle the creative process before it gets started. Instead, to shield us, the listeners, from the tsunami, we can rely on filtering on the back end.

While I think there is very little room left for innovation in copy-protection, I think there are still opportunities out there for brilliant ideas in the music-discovery arena. Things like last.fm, Pandora, or iTunes Genius are all fighting for share in this increasingly-important market. In a field of unlimited choice, we need some help to make the search-space reasonable. In the past, we relied on record labels to limit the field. Now, the same technology that allowed the field to explode and also help save us from its suffocation. Crowdsourcing and analysis of our own music tastes can work as personalized record labels, telling us what we should check out and what we shouldn't even think about.

Now, there are two different possibilities that might reveal themselves in an environment filled with perfect music-discovery services. If there really are a limited number of universally "good" artists, then the music-discovery services will cause that cream to rise to the top, and all other artists will quickly wither away, leaving that top segment able to make a living. On the other hand, if there really is no such thing as universally "good" artists, and our tastes are all very personal, then every artist out there will be a good fit for someone, and no single artist will make enough money to live off of. While the latter case may be bad news for artists looking to make money, it's still good news for listeners, because either way, we'll have no trouble finding music to listen to that we like.

Neil
 
A conclusion? Maybe not. An incredibly reasonable assumption? I believe so. As always, I'll remain open-minded. If someone can show me how some other factor or combination of factors, is having a bigger impact on sales than illegal downloads, I'll remain willing to accept that. Until that time, I'll call off the search for more complex answers where I feel none are needed.

So then what is your explanation for the huge sales increase between 1986-1994? Or said another way, why do you think sales today should be much higher than they were in 1986?

Why, in 2006-2008, a supposed golden-era of piracy, did video game revenue see nearly 20% yearly increases to reach all-time records each year?

As a side note, I did an interview with the guitar player from Hurt. Now granted, individual experiences are anecdotal, and don't represent evidence. That said, the experience he relayed is an interesting one.

Yeah, definitely an interesting and useful anecdote, but I tend to take any self-reported numbers from musicians with a huge grain of salt; a prime case-in-point being Halcyon Way's continued belief that 85,000 people actually downloaded their album. C'mon guys! No they didn't! The sooner you can disabuse yourselves of that notion, the sooner you'll be able to make better, reality-based decisions about your band's future.

Neil
 
I'd like to see more bands embrace free downloads. Give people a legit place to get the music for free. You should be happy that they want to hear your music. Maybe if you offer up a 3 track sampler for free they will buy the whole album. Or I saw one band with a decent size amount of albums put one of their earlier albums up for free download. Maybe you can even get an email address out of it for your mailing list to tell them about upcoming tours or releases.
 
Yeah, definitely an interesting and useful anecdote, but I tend to take any self-reported numbers from musicians with a huge grain of salt; a prime case-in-point being Halcyon Way's continued belief that 85,000 people actually downloaded their album. C'mon guys! No they didn't! The sooner you can disabuse yourselves of that notion, the sooner you'll be able to make better, reality-based decisions about your band's future.

Neil

sure, you're right and our label and the guy he had research it is totally wrong. Pretty amazing that your personal view of things overrides the facts and the research done by someone who has a vested interest in what downloading is doing to his business. Thanks for getting both NMR and HW back to reality. Lance, you should hire this guy to help us make reality-based decisions about our futures! He apparently has it all figured out!
 
I'd like to see more bands embrace free downloads. Give people a legit place to get the music for free. You should be happy that they want to hear your music. Maybe if you offer up a 3 track sampler for free they will buy the whole album. Or I saw one band with a decent size amount of albums put one of their earlier albums up for free download. Maybe you can even get an email address out of it for your mailing list to tell them about upcoming tours or releases.

We actually tried that leading into the release of BTT with mixed results. Most people either give you a fake email addy, or they can't be bothered to do anything in exchange for the free stuff. So if that's the case, there's not too much point in doing it as a band, as there has to be some reason to go through the trouble of setting a system up to fulfill the free orders. We still have 2 songs on there available for free on our ReverbNation page. But if we don't get anything in return from the person doing the DL,it doesn't really help us - such as the email addy, a Facebook page like, etc - because it's the same as a bit torrent DL. Anonymous and no user to mArket to or dialogue with.