Can I ask you guys a favor?

[Ermz]

For the longest time I've been a bit concerned that my absolute apex as an engineer was on the old Untruth EP. I listen back and am still quite taken back at the balancing of instruments, especially considering it was largely an ITB affair.

I was wondering if I could get you guys to take a listen, or at least let me know if you have a favourite project from the streaming works on my site.

http://www.systematicproductions.com/

This probably sounds like a shameless grab at self-promotion, but it isn't (it'd be on the main forum if I were going for that! ). I've genuinely been insecure that this whole 'analoguing up' I've done over the last few years may not have added anything significantly beneficial to the work. But I'm too close to these projects to make an objective call, so I keep running in circles with it.

Even if you guys could take a quick listen and let me know your faves, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Djunn]

Hey Ermin! I already listened to the playlist on your site a few times and I can say that "The Thrashening" is the far best of your work in my opinion. That's all.

 

[jipchen]

Imho the sound on all your releases is awesome. Judging or comparing the overall sound of the older releases with the newer ones without being biased by the music is near impossible to me. That said, while I enjoy the Untruth sound, balance etc personally I actually like the sound on the Naberus and the new In Malice's Wake releases better.
If that's you progressing as an engineer or the analogue gear or both of them, I can't tell I think the engineer himself is far more important than the gear. The subjective improvement I can hear comes most likely from your improved abilities and you'd be very close to this sound even without the analogue stuff.

In the end, I would say if you like to work with analogue gear, and enjoy the analogue processing despite its disadvantages (time consuming, total recall, etc) it is totally worth it. Personally I have no analogue EQs/compressors etc myself, but would very much like to get some - not because I think the sounds gonna improve largely but because I'd like to work more with my ears and hands rather than my eyes and then of course cool gear is fucking sexy.

 

[Morgan C]

Afraid to say I like the Untruth EP best. It's one of the best mixes I've heard in a while (oh how I wish you used real amps on the leads ><). Your newer mixes are too middy. In comparison to the Untruth mix, it sounds like there's a slight telephone filter going on. There's too many mids (everything is middy, the snare, the bass drum - lots of lowmids and not many subs and extreme highs, the guitars are pretty middy), whereas Untruth uses the entire spectrum fully. It sounds a little empty in the centre mids compared to the rest of your mixes, but it sounds huge (maybe because of this). The newer mixes might sound better on iPod earphones or something that's rather limited, but on a system that produces the extreme highs and lows the Untruth mix will win out.

Your newer mixes have a very different style, certainly more natural. I think you're just overusing the analogueness. Everythings middy (to the point of cloudiness and just too much going on), the lowmids are a bit muddy, the highs have been tamed and put in a cage, and the lows don't have much impact. This makes the mixes sound terrible, which they aren't by a longshot. Just when compared to Untruth.

And, unrelated, but may I reiterate that spending a grand on some really good quality cymbals to record with could really improve your drum sound. Huge cymbals can make a drum sound for me (see Daylight Dies - Dismantling Devotion album, or TGCD).

 

[Mago]

hmm...hard for me without letting the music take a part of that too^^

I like most of your mixes,apart from the "The Thrashening" I think...thought I like it at first, but there's something about it that I'm not a huge fan of.
Also not huge on the Naberus mix, even if that snare is awesome (I think that's what I like most about your mixes in general, snares, having listened to all the mixes now).

If I had to choose then I'd say I like the Elm Street mix the most, altho the Orpheus mix is pretty close to beeing more awesome (even with the troubled guitars)

Untruth EP is still cool, but mostly because it works pretty nice as a whole with the music. Same reason why I like the upper 2 mixes best.

But I agree (a bit) on Morgan's comment about the middyness

 

[Ermz]

Thanks for getting onto this so fast guys, it's good for some perspective.

The Nebula 4k saturation does emphasize the mids, there is no getting around that. I remember having this talk with Plec where I cited liking the 'togetherness' and glue you gain from it, but not from the bandwidth-limiting it seems to do for the spectrum. As a result I've recently started using less intense saturation on bass-heavy elements to retain the sub depth. At the same time, I've tried to stop listening to mixes as a vessel to deliver 'technical perfection' and more to emphasize the vibe of the music. I have to ask myself whether I would appreciate it as a listener before I get in there and make sure that every part of the spectrum is used neatly.

To summarize though, almost all of your gripes would be solved by me simply not using Nebula anymore, Morgan. The sound of the Untruth EP is the sound of ITB pushed to its limits. There is no softening of highs, or blurring, gluing effects. There is just the spectrum, and the instruments filling every part of it as best as I could humanly muster at the time. The cymbals thing is more to do with the room of late. Small room, tons of early reflection harshness etc. Almost impossible to deal with.

There seem to be two camps though. The ones who like the clarity and full spectrum, despite the sacrifice you make in 'togetherness' and 'vibe', and others who seem to like something a bit more middle of the road. I still can't decide which I am. However, if I did decide to go back 2 years it would literally be a total technique regression. I would literally have to start using tools again which we all accept are 'shit' compared to the real deal .

Oh, and I've never in my life recorded a bass that sounded as good raw as that original Untruth one did. It was a cheap NJ Beast using Chesswood.... it's not even a real wood for god's sake.

 

[ahjteam]

From the music player soundwise I liked the second track most (Untruth - Drones), in that the vocals most present and in your face, and I really liked that.

PS: what is the kick sample on Eye of the Eye - Peace, I really liked it.

 

[midget donkeys]

I can't get the player on your website to run here at work with all the anti-fun filters. So I can't listen to your old mixes at the moment.

But I was listening to the Thrashening on the way to work this morning and I think it rules. The listener doesn't give two poops if you used digital or outboard gear.

Andy has done mixes totally in the box and they sound great. He has done mixes with outboard gear and they are great. The head banging listeners don't even know the difference.

If I had the all the best gear in the world my ability to produce music would be no better than if I was just using reaper and free vst plugins (which I am).

If you wanted a true comparison of your mixes with or without outboard gear you would need to remix the old tracks of one of your in the box jobs with your new stuff. Then compare to the old one. If your comparing different projects with different bands your not getting a true comparison.

 

[Morgan C]

To summarize though, almost all of your gripes would be solved by me simply not using Nebula anymore, Morgan. The sound of the Untruth EP is the sound of ITB pushed to its limits. There is no softening of highs, or blurring, gluing effects. There is just the spectrum, and the instruments filling every part of it as best as I could humanly muster at the time.

To clarify, I'm not saying don't use Nebula. I'm saying back off a bit. Untruth with a bit of analogue goodness may have been even better. But I think, since the tools are so new to you, you're simply overusing them.. like a noob would overuse a compressor (I think I started with 30db GR and went from there), you're overusing the analogueness because 'more is better'. Give it a little more time to get used to your equipment and using in more subtle ways and I think your mixes will improve.

 

[Skinny Viking]

There's a player on your site?

Damned if I can find it

 

[LeSedna]

I like untruth the most too, though I think a tiny bit of your nebula skills would improve it. My only problem (on a personnal level) would be that all your mixes are too loundess maximized in the mastering stage for my tastes, I would back it off by one or two RMS dB, or maybe it's at a decent level but i usually prefer just a tiny bit of dynamics.

i agree the untruth bass sounds awesome. It's there everywhere. It's incredible how expensive gear does not make ar record necessarily better.

 

[LeSedna]

There's a player on your site?

Damned if I can find it

under "production" and over "past work". Maybe try another internet browser or update your flash player plugin ?

 

[Ermz]

I'm considering that maybe I should try Slate's VCC in place of Nebula. Of what I've heard from it there seems to be less 'effect' and it generally keeps things a bit more hi-fi.

Talking about Andy and analogue... I actually preferred the ITB mixes in his case, which isn't boding well for me here. He has an AWS which is a relatively transparent console compared to the 4k, and even so there's a been a bandwidth reduction and a unpleasant mid build up in the recent works compared to before.

The Untruth bass is ridiculous. I have the DI here. The only thing that's come close is an old 70s chapman stick I mixed once. Every other bass DI I've heard hasn't come close. I think the key with bass is to avoid resonant and deep woods. You need to isolate the fundamental and focus on it. So I'm starting to search for a maple/alder bass with stainless steel frets that I can stick Villex PUs into. Either that or a synthetic body bass, if we can find the right scale length. So basically take everything that's popular in modern bass culture, go the completely opposite way, and you should be in the ballpark.

 

[Skinny Viking]

under "production" and over "past work". Maybe try another internet browser or update your flash player plugin ?

weirdest thing ... I was looking at that spot for several minutes to see if there was a link I was missing or whatever ... that whole spot was just blank

well, I just opened the page for the 3rd time after reading this and all of a sudden, there it is

Thanks though!

 

[LeSedna]

It happens to me sometimes too, on other websites ! I don't know what's the reason, maybe the current flash version has some issues on some systems, don't know.

 

[crillemannen]

I actually thinks that the Untruth is lacking some glue, sounds a bit flat just as i can hear my mixes sounded before i started using saturation, VCC etc.
The mixes you have put up the last year has had a bit more 3d sound, yeah i know it is a bad word to use, but what the heck.

The Orpheus mix sounds the best to my ears, listening through headphones. Great glue.

If i where to draw the difference my ears perceive the Untruth vs the Oprheus mix it would be like this: Untruth: ----- (linear)Orpheus: (---) (3d) If that makes any sense haha???!!

THat is the problem with most ITB mixes is that they sound a bit linear-flat. and really good analogue/hybrid mixes sounds more 3d.

 

[Ermz]

Yes but the good analogue mixes also usually sound more muddy, indistinct and generally like they're struggling to use the spectrum effectively. But I dig that you see it that way, Christian. I feel almost exactly the same way. The Untruth mix... listening as an engineer, I do love it. It's one of the only of my own works I can say that about. But listening to it as a fan, I wouldn't feel the same depth, and involvement in the soundstage that makes records truly timeless to me as a listener. My favourite records, musically, are all somehow weird or lo-fi, but if it works for them, and isn't that what matters?

It's basically an ongoing battle of fidelity vs glue. Maybe something more 'interactive' like VCC will help me play with the saturation levels more in real time and get something closer to 'in between'. I don't suppose you have any mix stems around that you've put VCC on? I'd love to do a simple stem and master bus comparison of VCC with Nebula 4k on metal music. I need to hear whether the Nebula is overdoing things... or whether it's impulse-based nature is creating 'ringing' frequencies in the mids, which create this... whatever it is.

Thanks a lot for listening and commenting guys. Really means a lot in this case. It's been on my mind for a long time now.

 

[Harry Hughes]

weirdest thing ... I was looking at that spot for several minutes to see if there was a link I was missing or whatever ... that whole spot was just blank

well, I just opened the page for the 3rd time after reading this and all of a sudden, there it is

Thanks though!

Same thing happened to me.
I went into this thread, clicked on the link and said "Where the fuck is the music player so I can listen to the damn songs?". Looked at that same spot, but didn't see anything at all.
Gave up, and came back like half an hour later, and it finally showed up.
Latest version of Firefox and Flashplayer here, so I doubt that's the issue

 

[Skinny Viking]

I just listened through everything, here's my take on it for what its worth ...

Personally, I think you're thinking too much. Honestly speaking man, there is nothing that I hear that says "oh yeah, this is definitely not as good as that list bit". It ALL sounds great but just as any productions/mixes/ should sound, some of them have different qualities. I chalk that up to them being, well, different productions. I can't imagine how anybody you've worked with would be able to find any bit of fault in anything you have there. I know thats not what you're getting at but just stepping out of the normal thing and strictly listening as a civilian, they all have their own personality while still being sonically superior which is what any of us should be trying to achieve anyway. For better or worse I would hope that no 2 productions I ever do will ever sound the same. Maybe your bass is better on one and maybe the mids are a little more narrow on another but overall each sound fantastic and a bit different. Thats fuckin cool

Thats all I got

 

[Ermz]

MixPod tends to be funny at times. Also, Flash in general just sucks. I was thinking of getting Raziel to make a separate 'Streaming Works' banner so that at least the player is implied, even if it doesn't load immediately.

@FearComplexMusic: That was the first metal record I used this Nebula 4k stuff on. It was the old 'non-Pro' version that was apparently less accurate. The rhythm guitars were reamped by Lasse via 5150 III. I EQ'd the living balls out of them in the mix (in retrospect they probably didn't need as much as I gave em). Leads are X30 into Pres 8 impulse, in that song only. The solos were given to me near the last day of the mix, so I had to get them in there somehow. I still think this project is where Plec's mastering really boosted the mix more than ever. I gave him something fairly flat and tame sounding. Decently well balanced, but not very exciting. He helped give it that low punch, the airier highs, and cleaned the mids too. Sounds like he may have widened it a bit as well. Either way it's, musically, one of the best projects I've ever worked on, and it was received with almost universal praise.... except for the labels . I can't believe how many of my clients are currently getting signed, and Eye of the Enemy are still looking for international distribution.. it's insane. I even had Joey shop them to some labels in the US directly, with his approval, and it was a no-go .

@SkinnyViking: Thanks man. That's the attitude I'm trying to adopt. The Untruth thing is a bit of a 'I've already been there' deal, and I don't want to re-tread old ground... but I do want to help recapture some of that fidelity. It may actually start with sourcing a decent bass.