Clean Vocals

[jimwilbourne]

I'm curious about Clean Vocal Recording Techniques & pre-computer chains.

Basically I'm looking for guidance in knowing:
1. how to intelligently choice a mic
2. micing distance &
3. preamp for a vocalist

based on their vocal timbre/style.

I'd love to hear anyone's input as well as Joey's input.
I know Joey said he's using API or RME depending on the vocalist for the pre. but I don't have an ear to know how to pick. mainly because I don't know what I'm looking for.

anyone have any input?

 

[joeymusicguy]

I'm curious about Clean Vocal Recording Techniques & pre-computer chains.

Basically I'm looking for guidance in knowing:
1. how to intelligently choice a mic
2. micing distance &
3. preamp for a vocalist

based on their vocal timbre/style.

I'd love to hear anyone's input as well as Joey's input.
I know Joey said he's using API or RME depending on the vocalist for the pre. but I don't have an ear to know how to pick. mainly because I don't know what I'm looking for.

anyone have any input?

1. If you have a mic selection, you probably already know generic characteristics of those mics (ie: dark, bright, open, tight, etc.) So there's your starting point. Next, just set it up and try it. If you get a feeling like... oh this is TOO dark or TOO bright, then you know where to go from there.

2. Mic distance... you should have your windscreen the proper distance so that plosives don't hit the mic. at that point, you're at the optimal distance from the mic and the vocalist can get within an inch of the wind screen. i dont know if any of this is scientifically correct, no do i care. its what i've done in the past and it works fine. you should teach the vocalist how the whole rig works so that he knows if he moves the windscreen too close, it needs to be readjusted... etc. etc.

3. same as mic selection. preamps have general characteristics too (Bright, dark, mid heavy, mid light... etc.) start there, try it out, and make a relative decision from there.

basically, you're hardly ever going to nail the money combo on the first try. you just gotta almost blindly pick a combination, try it, and go from there.

 

[ahjteam]

PREAMP:

If my answer on the preamps doesn't satisfy you, the gear nerds can give a better answer on the preamp thing as I really couldn't give a damn about them. I've tried out over 40 different pre-amps ranging from SSL consoles to Behringer mixers and I usually just use the one that is available. The modern preamps are pretty good quality and even on the Behringer ADA8000 ones are "usable", but they are a tad noisy, but you won't hear the noise floor in the mix. If you would do a 24-48 track summing, then the preamp choices would start to matter more, but with just a few vocal tracks it's pretty insignificant between similar pre amps and in the mix.

Remember to use a compressor with vocals even when tracking and just get 2-4 different flavours of preamps to choose from. For example use the preamp that comes with your interface, if it has one. For budget choices, the RME Fireface that Joey uses has same preamps as on the RME Quad Mic (~380€ on thomann, 4 channels). The Golden Age Project PRE-73 (~300€ on thomann, 1 channel) is a Neve type preamp and then get a tube pre like Art Tube MP (40€ on thomann, 1 channel). Personally I have 3 different type of preamp: I have the 2 built-in pres on the M-Audio Profire 610, SPL Track One (1ch channel strip meant for vocals with de-esser, comp and eq) and the SM Pro Audio PR8E (8ch preamp).

If you have the cash and you are being serious about recording, go for API A2D (or 3124+) or Universal Audio 610. Can't go wrong with them, and they will last you a lifetime.



MIC:


With the mic, the choices start to matter more and you should have a pretty nice collection of microphones. There are generally 3 microphones that are so called "desert island" microphones: Neumann U87, AKG C414 and Shure SM58. Yes, SM58. I usually A/B compare the microphones so that I put two microphones on top of each other so that the top of the microphones are at the singers mouth height and then choose to use the one that sounds better.

If the singer is really dark sounding (like me for example), use a microphone that is slightly brighter like the U87. If the singer is a bit nasal or the sibilance is really sharp, try the C414 or SM57 as they are slightly darker than the U87.

The 58 and other hand held mics usually also works as the last resort mic too. When the singer is so fucking nervous about the situation, just give him/her a SM58, say "close your eyes and think you are at the Madison Square Garden", press record and hope for the best.

The thing with dynamic mics is that they usually don't get as much sound of the room sound so if your room treatment is less than ideal, getting a mic like AKG C1000, Röde M3 or Shure SM58 might be a good choice, but they usually have more problem with stuff like noise floor,



DISTANCE:

With condenser microphones, you can actually use distance and the air works as a really good compressor (I'm not kidding). With dynamic mics, you can't as the voice starts to get really quiet after 3 inches as the coil is really insensitive. The fact that you have to track at close distance from the mic causes proximity effect, so you have to use a pop filter. Personally I prefer metallic pop filters (like this) over the "panty hose" type cloth pop filters (like this) as they stop the air flow more efficiently. Or you can get one that has both


edit: joey was faster than me

 

[JeffTD]

If my answer on the preamps doesn't satisfy you, the gear nerds can give a better answer on the preamp thing as I really couldn't give a damn about them. I've tried out over 40 different pre-amps ranging from SSL consoles to Behringer mixers and I usually just use the one that is available. The modern preamps are pretty good quality and even on the Behringer ADA8000 ones are "usable", but they are a tad noisy, but you won't hear the noise floor in the mix. If you would do a 24-48 track summing, then the preamp choices would start to matter more, but with just a few vocal tracks it's pretty insignificant between similar pre amps and in the mix.

I really, really disagree with this. Upgrading pres has always resulted in an easier time mixing vocals for me, in that they sound more "up front" and "in your face" with better quality preamps. Once you hit Neve vs API vs UA vs Avalon vs etc it's a different story, but I've A/B'd takes with my FF800 pres vs my old SCA Neve and current SCA API clones, as well as a UA610 and Avalaon 737, and the nicer pre just sits the vocals in the mix SO much better than the FF800 stock pres.

 

[timislegend]

an excellent solution to finding the best mic/pre combo for the right vocalist.

micmaid

at first i thought it was a bit novelty until i actually used it... just hook up four potential mic/pre choices and have the vocalist go.


u87/u99/u67/c800 » 1073/m76/v276/tg2


and you can mix/match whatever mic to whatever pre with programmable routing schemes... probably a little pricey for the average project studio but i'm sure you can rent one somewhere.

 

[ahjteam]

I really, really disagree with this. Upgrading pres has always resulted in an easier time mixing vocals for me, in that they sound more "up front" and "in your face" with better quality preamps. Once you hit Neve vs API vs UA vs Avalon vs etc it's a different story, but I've A/B'd takes with my FF800 pres vs my old SCA Neve and current SCA API clones, as well as a UA610 and Avalaon 737, and the nicer pre just sits the vocals in the mix SO much better than the FF800 stock pres.

This was the first link that came to mind:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...n-you-tell-difference-art-vs-great-river.html

It ain't the only blind shootout at gearslutz or at sneap forum where the "cheap piece of shit" has won the helluva more expensive thing.
We compared SSL, Neve and API when I was in the States and even tho they are totally different sounding preamps, the difference was so small in the mix that it didn't really matter in the end.

And another test I did was when I split the mic signal of me playing guitar to SM Pro Audio PR8E and SPL Track One. The price difference per channel is about 625€. Can you say which one is the SPL and which one is the SM Pro Audio pre? And if you CAN tell which one is which, can you say that the difference is significant?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/smproaudiopr8e_vs_spltrackone-01.wav
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/smproaudiopr8e_vs_spltrackone-02.wav

Just sayin'. YMMV

 

[jimwilbourne]

I'm fortunate to have access to some good mics.
I have both a u87 and a TLM49.
I also have a sm58 and the mxl990.

I'm considering picking up the ART Pro MPA 2 as a new preamp to add to my 896mk3.
Does anyone know much about this pre and how it works in sonic character with Vocals & DIs?

 

[timislegend]

I'm considering picking up the ART Pro MPA 2 as a new preamp to add to my 896mk3.
Does anyone know much about this pre and how it works in sonic character with Vocals & DIs?

i have fooled around with this preamp a couple of times. i think the variable impedance pot is a nice feature.

but i feel like there are a bunch of features that are just mediocre and make me wonder if they are even necessary... ie m/s switch etc.

i think that this pre is more useful for drum overheads or some other stereo miking.


if you don't want to break the bank but also want a preamp that will rival some boutique pres... check out the preamp 73 by golden age.

it has similar characteristics as the neve 1073 which is exemplary for vocal recordings.

 

[ShredderForhire]

I believe that pre's make a great difference, but the pre's on my firestudio have done me no wrong( wish they had more gain for my sm7b)
Advances in mixing techniques, performance quality, and general engineering practice should be priority over buying expensive pre's for the serious project studio.

 

[JeffTD]

This was the first link that came to mind:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...n-you-tell-difference-art-vs-great-river.html

It ain't the only blind shootout at gearslutz or at sneap forum where the "cheap piece of shit" has won the helluva more expensive thing.
We compared SSL, Neve and API when I was in the States and even tho they are totally different sounding preamps, the difference was so small in the mix that it didn't really matter in the end.

And another test I did was when I split the mic signal of me playing guitar to SM Pro Audio PR8E and SPL Track One. The price difference per channel is about 625€. Can you say which one is the SPL and which one is the SM Pro Audio pre? And if you CAN tell which one is which, can you say that the difference is significant?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/smproaudiopr8e_vs_spltrackone-01.wav
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1338211/smproaudiopr8e_vs_spltrackone-02.wav

Just sayin'. YMMV

All that GS thread example tells me is that there are a ton of people with really shitty ears on that forum and that you should stop attempting to use American slang. I called that Apple was the GR from the get go - it's not honky and stale and static like the Orange clip.

There have also been a shit ton of threads posted on the Sneap forum with FF800 vs Neve/API/SCA preamps on guitar tones and the like where I have, every single time, been able to accurately identify the FF800 pre from the other, and it's always worth the cost IMO, especially when you start throwing things into a mix.

The Neve vs SSL vs API comparison I already covered - at a certain quality level, you're just going sideways, not up or down.

The SMPro vs SPL test tells nothing - what am I supposed to tell from a distance micing of an unplugged electric guitar? (if that's even what it is? I legitimately cannot tell, worst candidate for a test recording ever)

 

[jimwilbourne]

i have fooled around with this preamp a couple of times. i think the variable impedance pot is a nice feature.

but i feel like there are a bunch of features that are just mediocre and make me wonder if they are even necessary... ie m/s switch etc.

i think that this pre is more useful for drum overheads or some other stereo miking.


if you don't want to break the bank but also want a preamp that will rival some boutique pres... check out the preamp 73 by golden age.

it has similar characteristics as the neve 1073 which is exemplary for vocal recordings.

that actually looks like a pretty reasonable deal.
of course, I doubt it gets in the same playing field as the real 1073. but I can't expect them to turn water into wine.

do you have any experience with this pre with an assortment of mics?
any experience with this with DIs or cab micing?

 

[timislegend]

the overall character of the preamp 73 isn't very versatile nor is it transparent but considering this particular thread is regarding "vocals" i highly recommend the preamp 73.

there are other clone models that are worth taking a look at like the five fish studios api 512 clone or the seventh circle audio 1073 clones (among other transformer and op-amp options).

another option if you are looking for low budget (but supreme) transparency would be an ADA8000 (BLA MOD). black lion doesn't advertise this mod but i had one done about 2 years ago and purchased their micro-clock with it... and i can say confidently that it is an incredible purchase worthwhile (kinda wish i never sold it). =\


(not to sound like a sales person) but what you get is:

- ADA8000 ($199) « i actually found one for $99
- premium mod ($450)
- micro clock mkii ($315)
- plus return shipping ($30)

so basically under $1,000 you can have 8 channels of preamps and converters that rival apogee/rme/lynx aurora series.

you can email/call the dudes at black lion audio. they are really cool and they are incredibly informative people that stand behind their product.

 

[Dustin Morrison]

If you go listen to that Alt-Country song on my page called "Bar Fly", it's a Beta57 going thru the ME1-NV with the FMR RNC compressing on the way in. Hi-Pass at 100hz, no other eq. Rverb Plate reverb. We were hitting the input stage of the preamp pretty good just to give it some character. Then listen to the "Death Rattlers" track. It's the same singer, different band. That's a 414 with the input gain backed down on the ME1-NV and the UAD2 1176LN comping. 100hz high pass, no eq. You'll hear the tonality change for sure.

Anway, with that being said. I'd like to have a good tube mic and an SM7B and a good tube mic pre..... but I'd say technique and performance is WAY more of a factor than the gear.

But I love the Great River Pre. I know i read somewhere that Joey has one but doesnt like his anymore....but not sure if he still feels that way.

 

[nch3966]

with condensers point the mic slightly at the singers nose[kinda at the pallete] less chance of plosives and kinda has a natural dessing effect

 

[tempe]

with condensers point the mic slightly at the singers nose[kinda at the pallete] less chance of plosives and kinda has a natural dessing effect

That's a really good tip actually, not only does it kill plosives a little but if you have the mic maybe 2cm higher it'll make the vocalist sing upwards opening their diaphragm thus projecting more.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

I'm more interested in hearing a little about coaching vocalists to get the best performance possible out of them... a great take will sound bad ass even if its not through the perfectly matched mic.

In my experience, I feel like people either have "it" or they don't - but I also feel like some guys (including Joey obviously) can get that "it" out of someone pretty much with anyone.

 

[jimwilbourne]

That's a really good tip actually, not only does it kill plosives a little but if you have the mic maybe 2cm higher it'll make the vocalist sing upwards opening their diaphragm thus projecting more.

whoa. why are you having the singer tilt his head up?
I put the mic a little higher than the singer, but I tell them to sing straight forward.

Singing upwards actually constricts singing ability if they have to sing with range.
if anything, you'll want them to sing downwards.

 

[tempe]

^^
That please. I definitely need more "production" tips than "tracking, mixing or mastering" tips!
One thing I like to do is just make them feel like rockstars as much as possible. Make sure everything is set up ready to go before the vocalist gets there. Set him up a music stand for his lyrics, and a little table for water / headphones / whatever. Basically do whatever you can to make them feel as comfortable as humanly possible, I find that when people are relaxed about that sort of stuff they perform better.

One more thing a lot of people neglect (well I know I did), is the importance of an inspiring headphone mix, whack your tracking cans on and make a separate mix for the vocalist that sounds awesome, give the guy some verb as well. Made a huge difference the first time I did it.

 

[jimwilbourne]

haha. I didn't ask about vocal coaching because I'm pretty good at that because I'm a vocalist and I tend to be able to pull the right performance out of a person.
honestly, it really helps if you've had voice lessons yourself or had classes in vocal coaching from college. you learn what's going wrong and how to correct it. 90% of the time, it's a breathing issue in my experience.
pitchy performances are usually fixed with helping the vocalist visualized what they need to sing.
I have my singers doing all kinds of physical motions in order to get them to get stuff right.

however, I'd love to hear advice on tracking your own vocals. that, to me, is the real nightmare.
as a vocalist who's an engineer, I can hardly do a take without finding minor imperfections. I don't know who to call it good enough with my own voice.

EDIT:
in addition, the right atmosphere works well. I'm kind of a hardass with my takes. but I say it with a good since of humor. it's good to learn how to joke with your clients while correcting their flaws. it really helps my vocalists to relax and I always get a "wow, this was the best recording experience I've ever had"

 

[tempe]

Jesus I did some singing training at uni and was told to sing slightly up! Going to stop doing that immediately!