Climate Change

[Damian B]

http://fora.tv/2009/08/18/A_REALLY_Inconvenient_Truth_Dan_Miller

I have several friends who seriously doubt that climate change exists, and they think it's just an imaginary crutch being used by Toyota and Whole Foods to get money out of people. We got into a pretty "heated" debate about this last weekend when we were drunk haha.

Anyways, I personally believe that there are some very valid valid concerns. The general argument against climate change is that the earth goes through a natural warming/cooling cycle, and that we as humans have nothing to do with this.

I tend to reject this though. I don't see how you can say that our immense deforestation, industrialized mega-cities with millions of people, and enormous consumption of CO2 spewing fossil fuels have no discernible impact on the earths atmosphere. The use of CFCs and the ozone layer are pretty good examples of this. Throughout the 60s and 70s we saw a rapid expansion of the hole in the ozone layer. When it was finally narrowed down to CFC use in 1985, scientists pushed for the banning of CFCs, which happened, and now today it is generally agreed upon that we solved the ozone problem.

So basically, within 40 years we completely fucked up the ozone layer. Luckily, we were able to reverse it, but this might not be as easy in the future. Take a look at the graphs in the video. One of the first ones shows the amount of CO2 in the earth's atmosphere over a period of 600,000 years. There is a very regular pattern, from which we can easily identify the ice ages and subsequent warming of the earth. Then take a look at where that CO2 level is today. It's nearly double where it should be, and is expected to increase by another 200% during our lifetimes.

To me this isn't fear mongering, it's blatantly obvious scientific data.

Discuss.

 

[JBroll]

Discuss? This issue has been turned into political bullshit and it's becoming harder for actual climatologists (not Al Gore, not MegaForestKillerCo's poorly-disguised 'research group' designed to 'disprove' big words with unreadable charts, not think-tanks whose sole interest in the subject is political gain, et cetera) to fight over the massive manipulation and actually do science.

Science is not a collection of opinions (it's not even a collection of *experts'* opinions, let alone those of laymen) and 'discussion' will have a hard time leading to anything relevant at all. If we need anything, it's a mandatory period of *shut the fuck up until you get your Ph.D. and work in the field* out of non-scientists so that actual science can happen. The difference between "I can have an opinion" and "I *should* have an opinion" is often large, and with science it's fucking huge - since the media and popular discussions have turned the subject into a minefield and science is getting pushed out of the way to make room for political preferences, it's time to start kicking people in the shins until science is done for the sake of science and not partisan bullshit.

I personally refuse to hold a belief *at all*, because I'm not well-versed in the field, and if your motives are tainted by allegiance to a cause other than the advancement of knowledge you should do the same. People who hold opinions about quantum mechanics or have 'theories' about what the LHC will do despite a lack of knowledge of physics, or who hold mystical beliefs about numbers without knowing any real mathematics, or who advocate homeopathy and other quackery without any knowledge of medicine look like total asses, why should climatology be any different? Let the scientists do the talking. If you care enough, study the field - otherwise, quit participating in a massive pile of bullshit that's only drowning out actual experts. Everyone will thank you later.

Jeff

 

[Damian B]

Well, I generally agree with you, and for the record I'm working on a minor in Environmental Studies. I guess I really didn't make it clear in my rant (and I suppose it was a rant) that my real problem lies with the people who will throw scientific evidence out the window without properly examining it. My aforementioned friends both fit this description perfectly; they have their minds made up, and refuse to acknowledge any of the studies that, in my opinion, validate the concerns for climate change.

I don't really think your claim, as I understand it at least, that non-scientists shouldn't have an opinion is valid. Like it or not, policy makers are not generally scientists, and the majority of the American public aren't either. I don't have any allegiances to either side, that would be contradictory to the spirit of the scientific method, but I do have what I believe to be an informed opinion.

The issue has certainly been politicized, by both sides, I'll give you that, but that wasn't my intention in the original post. I suppose there isn't much to be gained by discussing the issue here on a metal forum, but I was curious to hear the naysayer's opinions, and their rationale behind it.

 

[JBroll]

The problem is that for political reasons *everyone* will throw some scientific evidence out the window.

Politicians shouldn't have to hold opinions - they can defer to scientific bodies. If they do, in fact, wish to *represent* instead of dictating and proselytizing, they should shut their faces and leave the science to the scientists - *that* is what I'd like to see.

I'm not going to try to stop people from having an opinion - but nobody can pretend that having uninformed, useless opinions about science, based not on fact but on political tendencies, is a good idea. The right to *not* have an opinion is pretty frequently overlooked, and it should be exercised far more frequently than it is.

It looks like I guessed your intentions right, and I see what you're trying to do - my stance is the usual JBroll "Everybody just fuck off already..." position and I'd like to see more people recognizing when they *shouldn't* have opinions because they don't have the background necessary for them.

Jeff

 

[paladin shredder]

i posted a thread about a documentary called "home" not to long ago that deals with the environmental issues. nobody responded.

my opinion of the film is that it is very factual and has good information, but it does seems quite politicized. i think that humans do have a significant impact on the earths climate, but i also believe there are many other factors that also impact the earths climate, such as solar activity, which the film didn't discuss.

i haven't watched the lecture you posted yet, but i will when i get the chance.

 

[Kazrog]

Whether or not climate change exists should not affect our efforts to make sure that we don't ruin our environment for ourselves. I'm not here to enter into the debate about climate change - although I would say that there is sufficient enough evidence to be at least 75% sure that we are capable of fucking with the climate to some degree or another. What more proof do we need? Another year of massive hurricanes? What's the harm in trying to do things responsibly, or in dissociating ourselves with militaristic oil empires? We have to do this anyway - the oil will run out... soon... so it's not really a choice of "if" but of "when" and "how" we make the transition of energy infrastructure.

We know what is toxic to us, and what is toxic to other animals - let's focus on not fucking things up! It doesn't take advanced science to know that things like arsenic, mercury, nuclear waste, etc. are toxic to us and most life on Earth, and therefore these things probably don't belong in our ocean, rivers, streams, ground water, etc. unless we are really perversely into random mutation experiments and mass population control - in which case there are far more interesting and efficient approaches to either end.

Our time here on the planet is going to be limited the most by our own actions - it's not about "saving the Earth" or all that hippie crap - the Earth will be here for billions of years, and we are just a small blip on its radar - it's about saving ourselves from ourselves.

"Species come and go, but the earth stands forever fast."
-In Flames