Coaching musicians to not suck

[ForefrontStudio]

I'm going to be needing some help with this. I just recorded drums and scratch guitars for a band. the drummer was "ok". at least for a high school-aged local band. at least he didn't try to out play his abilities.

the fricktard of a guitarist is going to take some serious work though. he couldn't even play to a click. I can kind of understand a drummer having a hard time with a click (and by kind of I mean I have a general understanding that drummers are rhythmically retarded), but a guitarist? come on... he also hits his strings like a puss, uses super light strings and tunes to drop C and plays downstrokes and upstrokes in all the wrong places. am I hopeless, or is there a way I can coach decent takes out of this gerb? of course he wants to layer 2 different guitars too (rhythm, and "lead"). I can't even imagine what his idea of "lead" sounds like...

For starters, I'm going to insist on him using one of my properly set up, freshly strung, les pauls strung with heavier strings and force him to play like a man. but how do you communicate this to someone that is obviously completely unaware of what good guitar playing actually sounds like?

I would LOVE to hear some insight from some of the vets around here. it would be AWESOME if I could get some kind of feedback from the wonderful Mr. Sturgis because I know he deals with some... "less than great musicians" from time to time, yet manages to get amazing results.

 

[Nebulous]

Sit him down with Youtube at the start of a session, casually chatting while clips of Hetfield, Jon Schaffer, Loomis etc are playing in the background. Pick up a guitar at some point during this "setting up" session and play one of their riffs better than he does.

If they are young, make them think you are awsome and they will hopefully listen.

 

[mick thompson]

haha this is so weird - i was in the exact same suituation about 12 hours ago recording a pre production - clicks were a bit of a problem so we decided to use none, nothing you really can do unless they are willing to listen to you and they are open minded about being trained. they just need to jam to a click for about 1 or 2 weeks straight and they will be right as rain

 

[ForefrontStudio]

Sit him down with Youtube at the start of a session, casually chatting while clips of Hetfield, Jon Schaffer, Loomis etc are playing in the background. Pick up a guitar at some point during this "setting up" session and play one of their riffs better than he does.

If they are young, make them think you are awsome and they will hopefully listen.

That's actually a good idea. luckily, I have some respect in the area already from being in a somewhat successful local/semi-national band. I was "in a signed band". you know how that sounds to high school kids. haha. this is definitely a good place to start, but I think getting him to listen to me isn't going to be the hard part. getting decent takes out of him will be.

 

[ahjteam]

if he has a major problem with timing, tell him to buy guitar hero or rockband and play it on hard or expert for 2 months straight. This is no joke, it is a fun way that can make huge improvement on getting sucky timing to tolerateable.

 

[Trevoire520]

You might be surprised how easy he comes round to some ideas if you just explain them to him. For example, heavy tone=heavy strings + heavy playing (I hate kids that barely touch their guitars and then wonder why shit sounds weak, normally because they're used to hiding behind alot of gain!)

As for getting his playing to come through well, I really don't know man, in my experience a sucky guitarist will always sound like he sucks no matter what you do. Best of luck!

 

[MEGA DAVE]

Usually with a short time frame there's not much you can do, sometimes I'll just let them play in free time to the drum tracks as they usually tend to get the feel for the drummers timing and just keep doing cut in's untill it's decent. Start working with them now on timing issues and show them how to properly practice to a metronome and insist that they do for now on, sometimes you can also trick them into thinking its cool to practice with a metronome, ex: I showed a band the speed training to a metronome chapter of Petrucci's Rock Discipline dvd and said THAT'S how you get that good

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

I'm recording this kid who is just plain terrible. There is no talking him out of it either.

So he is getting what he gets (crappy takes).

 

[cloy26]

I'm recording this kid who is just plain terrible. There is no talking him out of it either.

So he is getting what he gets (crappy takes).

This is what I have to resort to most of the time. lol

 

[SentencedToBurn]

I can kind of understand a drummer having a hard time with a click (and by kind of I mean I have a general understanding that drummers are rhythmically retarded), but a guitarist? come on...

if anybody SHOULDNT be rhythmically retarded in a band, its the drummer.

 

[Sora01]

if anybody SHOULDNT be rhythmically retarded in a band, its the drummer.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Heavy strings aren't required at all.
Plenty of guitarists use 8 gauge strings and sound great.
Chris Storey, formerly of All Shall Perish, tunes up 2 semi tones except for the low B string which makes it drop B (well he did in ASP anyway) and had his guitar strung with 8-38+56. No shortage of heaviness either, the man knows how to play.
Meshuggah used 9-52 (52 for their low B, no joke) back in their 7 string days, and plenty of people liked their Chaosphere tone. Again, it's just about good technique.

Edit : post corrected.

 

[ahjteam]

Chris Storey, formerly of All Shall Perish, tunes up 2 semi tones (well he did in ASP anyway) and had his guitar strung with 8-38+56. No shortage of heaviness either, the man knows how to play.

any sources for that F# tuning? Or did he use a baritone guitar and then tune that up two semitones to B?

 

[abt]

I think it is a case of tough love, tell them it is not good enough. The problem with this is when they're that age they can't be told. The solution to this used to be to just let them go, eventually they'll want to know why their recording sound so bad compared to everyone else.

In this day and age with quantizing, drum replacement, etc, etc you can make almost anything within reason sound good. To their ears it will be great.

The hard part for you is to decide whether you give it to them straight then help them fix it, just say nothing and fix it as best as you can, or let them crash and come to realise that they need to do loads more work.

I do have one experience from many years ago. I was recording this band pieced together by the guitarist. The rest of the players were out of his league. The song sucked but he wasn't getting it. I suggested we started work on another song but I wanted to record them live as a group to get a better vibe on the guide track. I told them I needed a good one take live performance. He was robbed of his ability to hide behind overdubs and drop-ins. The rest of the guys nailed their parts where he kept screwing up.

After the session I took the chance to tell him that he needed to go home and practice. I also slipped in the he needed to put heavier strings on because it would help him sound better.

Having said all that I know an engineer who kicks out bands all the time. Just the other day he was tracking this band and the guitarist was sloppy. Three strikes your out. He went in and told him to go and practice his parts and come back when he was ready.

 

[Harry Hughes]

AHJTeam : Sorry, that post was written on a lack of sleep. I'm not sure where the F# came from, as I said, lack of sleep.
They used drop B on that album, and you can imagine since every string except the low B is tuned up 2 semi tones, 8 gauge strings make it much more comfortable for bending and vibrato in that tuning.

 

[ForefrontStudio]

if anybody SHOULDNT be rhythmically retarded in a band, its the drummer.

you would think so. bu being the drummer is the rhythmic foundation of the band, he doesn't have to follow a tempo. the other musicians have to follow him, so they at least have to listen to some timing. I find, most of the time, the drummers are the ones that struggle with playing with a click the most. they're used to everyone following them, not following something else.

 

[joeymusicguy]

Make sure you have a wound third for drop c. Or you'll have terrible sounding octaves, root fifth + octave fifth chords, and leads

 

[::XeS::]

Teaching musicians to not suck is a problem because they can't learn new thing in 5-10minutes. You can explain them how to put the hands on the bridge, say them to push harder on the strings, etc... but you have to fight with their ego's and moreover, if they have a tecnique, they can't change it immediately, so fuck them. If they suck, the album probably will suck

 

[lordofthestring]

Heavy strings aren't required at all.
Plenty of guitarists use 8 gauge strings and sound great.
Chris Storey, formerly of All Shall Perish, tunes up 2 semi tones except for the low B string which makes it drop B (well he did in ASP anyway) and had his guitar strung with 8-38+56. No shortage of heaviness either, the man knows how to play.
Edit : post corrected.

I remember when Chris heckled me for using 8's when I was on tour with him...what a boner! Your last sentence says it all though, it's just how you play. I can make light strings sound heavy...it's all about 'picking etiquette'.

As for All Shall Perish using F# now, this is true...they're using 8 string Ibanez guitars now IIRC. I heard some of the new stuff they recorded and all I can say is if anyone had doubts about the new guitarists writing abilities, those doubts will be squashed when the record comes out. Incredible guitartistry!

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Really, if they can't hear that they're that bad, then there isn't much you will be able to tell them. If you take the project - get ready for ass loads of edits.

Hmmm. I will add to my response after the fact - You never know. If you explain to them about timing, and let them hear their tracks against the click, then explain all that is necessary to fix it - they may take it upon themselves to practice and get better sounding takes.