Concerning 'Best of All Times' lists... is it me or...

[Jim LotFP]

... does it really disturb the SHIT out of you too when you see people making 'Top Ten Albums of All Time' lists where half of the albums are less than two years old?

I mean, it's bad enough if I were to do such a list (maybe I'd have the smarts to say 'Metal Albums of All Time)...

But still.

Think anyone has the wherewithal to be able to separate 'Favorite' and 'Best' albums?

*being Grumpy Jim tonight*

 

[rhavin2112]

I agree.

 

[jageorge72]

I like reading lists, top 10's, etc... Unfortuantely, albums that sounds good after 3 or 4 listens are being considered "masterpieces" & making "Top 10 of all-time" lists.......which is a joke.

I am equally disturbed by reviewers who give albums 10 out of 10. There are only a small handful of albums that actually deserve it each year.

For example.......(a prediction)......I've read some really good things about the new Agalloch. I liked Pale Folklore. I'm already convinced (....but I hope I'm wrong!) that The Mantle will fall way short of my expectations, and is being given way too much praise. Does it really deserve it? I hope so, but I doubt it.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by jageorge72
For example.......(a prediction)......I've read some really good things about the new Agalloch. I liked Pale Folklore. I'm already convinced (....but I hope I'm wrong!) that The Mantle will fall way short of my expectations, and is being given way too much praise. Does it really deserve it? I hope so, but I doubt it.

I've had it a tad longer than most have, and I think it certainly deserves it. It certainly is superior to Pale Folklore, which was one of my top albums of 1999.

 

[jageorge72]

By the way.......I'm thinking of picking up Agoraphobic Nosebleed - Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope.

Hmmmm......The Mantle, or Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope???

The guys at the office were dying at the that album title, and some of the tracks. "Hungry Homeless Handjob" Heh heh!! Adrian Bromley gave it a 9.5/10 in the latest Unrestrained.

I must have it. I'm expecting a complete turd of a CD, but ya never know. I might actually like it?!

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Well, (back to the original question) I'm not actually all that disturbed, myself, as I honestly believe that right now is the best time for metal, ever. It's in the underground where it can expand, cross-pollenate and flourish, influences are coming in from everywhere and the genre is growing seemingly exponentially. There's a lot of excess crap as well, of course, but I don't think metal has ever been, as a whole, on the progressive upswing it has been the past few years.

Look at the releases in 1999 alone. Just running down BW&BK's top 30 of the year, we have (in not quite exact order):

In Flames - Colony
Testament - The Gathering
Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black
Hypocrisy - Hypocrisy
Opeth - Still Life
Emperor - IX Equilibrium
Arch Enemy - Burning Bridges
Dream Theater - Scenes from a Memory
Amorphis - Tuonela
Katatonia - Tonight's Decision

...and didn't Nightwish release Oceanborn in '99 as well? And Devin Townsend release Infinity? And Dark Tranquillity release Projector? And then remember that on either side of this year were significant releases by Ulver, Vintersorg, and a host of others, and then remember that I'm not even taking into account anything by Dan Swano.

Anyways, I think when we ask what are the 'best' albums of all time, even if we allow that we can seperate 'favourite' from 'best' we're still not looking strictly objectively at the album for what it is, we're taking into account the influential impact it had and a number of other such factors.

Is it hard to accept that My Arms, Your Hearse (or insert whatever other example here) might be the best metal album ever, because it's only 4 years old?

I'd say it doesn't disturb me at all, it's a reminder that despite the public image of what metal is based on the angry disco that is nu-metal floating around MTV, those of us who know can be safe in the knowledge that with quality-dedicated labels like The End Records, Dark Symphonies, Elitist, and others seemingly on the rise, there'll be a lot of high-quality MUSIC in this genre for some time to come.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
Well, (back to the original question) I'm not actually all that disturbed, myself, as I honestly believe that right now is the best time for metal, ever.

Well at least you're taking this from the right perspective. But it is harder to find the good stuff with all the crapola out there compared with years past. Or maybe that's the point. The crapola was there, we're just not subjected to it NOW.

I'm still trying to decide if time buries the anomalies that should be remembered, or if time does its job and makes sure the shit is forgotten.

Then again, when sometime mentions a great album from the early 80s, "You HAVE to hear this, they were so typical for their time!" isn't something often said. Which means Don't Break the Oath has more notoriety than Battle Cry, so maybe it works out.

But I worry about things these days. Take Elitist Records, to use an example. Rakoth and Ephel Duath in particular. Those bands' debuts now at least get a chance through Earache's system, whereas Code666 was getting them nowhere in the grand scheme, just because they didn't have the power to do it. The business side is so important just in letting the 'right' people know about the talent out there, unfortunately...

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
Look at the releases in 1999 alone. Just running down BW&BK's top 30 of the year, we have (in not quite exact order):
In Flames - Colony
Testament - The Gathering
Nevermore - Dreaming Neon Black
Hypocrisy - Hypocrisy
Opeth - Still Life
Emperor - IX Equilibrium
Arch Enemy - Burning Bridges
Dream Theater - Scenes from a Memory
Amorphis - Tuonela
Katatonia - Tonight's Decision

With the exception of Nevermore, I don't think there's really much of anyone who would say those albums are the best of those bands, let alone of all time.

My Top 10 of 99 (in alphabetical order):

Agalloch Pale Folklore The End
Dusk My Infinite Nature Alone Hibernia
Ebony Lake On the Eve of the Grimly Inventive Cacophonous
Forgotten Silence Senyaan Redblack
Nevermore Dreaming Neon Black Century Media
Opeth Still Life Peaceville
Primal Fear Jaws of Death Nuclear Blast
Solefald Neonism Avantgarde
Devin Townsend Infinity HevyDevy
Virgin Steele The House of Atreus Act I Noise
Wuthering Heights Within Sensory

And there's only one on there that I would even considered for a list of greatest of ALL TIME, and even that probably wouldn't rank THAT high... and a couple where people actively argue with me about even being good at all, heh.

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
Anyways, I think when we ask what are the 'best' albums of all time, even if we allow that we can seperate 'favourite' from 'best' we're still not looking strictly objectively at the album for what it is, we're taking into account the influential impact it had and a number of other such factors.

I think a lot of people who make such lists got into metal last year and don't have that much from the 90s, let alone 80s and 70s. I used to do it too. heh. What fixed me is realizing if I was going to write about it, I'd better know about it, so I started off buying CDs that I had no intention of liking, but thought I needed to know. Amazing what one discovers that way. I'd do it a lot more now if I had the money, too, but it's funny when you're losing money like mad on a publication, just how little explorer's money is left while you're just buying full versions of the promos you DID like. heh But the realistic goal of the newsletter (wow, segue back to LotFP!) is to break even, PLUS allow me to buy 30 CDs a month of all styles, even stuff I expect to HATE HATE HATE, because with all the crud I get, I really need to hear some of the crud that's not sent to me, and that I wouldn't buy on a strict budget. Any profit after that will probably go to CDs anyway too. hah! So much for the dream of living off of this if I got 1200 subscribers, I'd never manage the money well enought.

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
Is it hard to accept that My Arms, Your Hearse (or insert whatever other example here) might be the best metal album ever, because it's only 4 years old?

Certainly, when it's not even the best album Opeth themselves have released.

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
despite the public image of what metal is based on the angry disco that is nu-metal floating around MTV

I firmly believe that if it was Opeth, Emperor, and Cannibal Corpse all over MTV and Staind, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit in the underground, that it's Opeth, Emperor, and CC that would be called 'angry disco'... because the underground is just as image-driven as anything else. We can only think that we ourselves are exceptions to the marketing hype, but we always fail in some way...

I like how the MTV guy put it on this week's Metal Sludge interview, basically, 'If Slipknot was on Relapse Records, all the underground kids would love it.' And it is true.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

With the exception of Nevermore, I don't think there's really much of anyone who would say those albums are the best of those bands, let alone of all time.

I suppose my point was that there is a growing quantity of quality right now, or at least that's how I percieve it. Even if they're not the best ever, it demonstrates how consistent and alive the genre is as a whole - it makes it very easy for the scenario in question, to fill a "best of" list with entirely recent albums. My examples were just a small slice, a single year for some of the bands I happen to like.

Of course, my points on this may be straying a bit off your original point, as I must agree that a lot of metal fans now have not been so for a very long time and have not heard a lot of earlier material which would be considered "musts" if looking at the history of the genre as a whole. Then again, many metal fans now seemingly don't particularly care for traditional/power metal, and most of the early 80's is written off as far as they're concerned anyways. Metal has expanded in style so much we have to expect that people will pick all sorts of favourites without a single Iron Maiden album on the list...

But I worry about things these days. Take Elitist Records, to use an example. Rakoth and Ephel Duath in particular. Those bands' debuts now at least get a chance through Earache's system, whereas Code666 was getting them nowhere in the grand scheme, just because they didn't have the power to do it. The business side is so important just in letting the 'right' people know about the talent out there, unfortunately...

But again, does this mean that there's so much shit out there Rakoth have to wade through and beat past in order to be rightfully heard, or that competition is stiff for Rakoth and that's actually an excellent sign that there's a lot of great bands out there waiting to be heard?

How elitist (no pun intended) must the genre be as a result of the size of it's fanbase?

'If Slipknot was on Relapse Records, all the underground kids would love it.'

Heh, very good. Lee Barrett's been hammering away at this point for some time now about Slipknot specifically. Perhaps we have to accept that the underground is a reactionary image to the mainstream, but then we might have to lose the perception that we're better judges of music than your average Slipknot fan. We can't have that, now, can we?

Either way, I think it's fair to assert that the image of the underground is fueled primarily by the fans themselves. In the statement "because the underground is just as image-driven as anything else", do you think that's something we can apply to the bands and their respective labels in and of themselves, or is this something the fan creates as the reactionary image to the mainstream I mention above?

 

[ProgMetalFan]

Doesn't disturb the shit out of me at all... most of the my favorite albums have been released in the last 5 years... hell, 95 percent of what i listen to has been released in the past 5 years... I believe this is the most creative time for metal...