Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

Well, I did say kind of. You just come off a certain way that others find maybe a bit abrasive and/or distasteful. Although I do believe you have the best of intentions ;) and it goes with out saying that there are an infinite amount of things you don't know, that applies to all. To be verbose you don't necessarily have to be talking about something complex. Maybe my choice of word is off, maybe obscure is better.

Ein, do you not believe human beings have an inherent nature? Do you approve of the blank slate theory?
 
Mathiäs;10559828 said:
:rolleyes: You can be a "know it all" without being a douche.

Douche is in the eye of the beholder. I always get a kick out of how different people see other people in opposite lights, especially when I hear from both sides about that third party. Many times it's just a personality clash.
 
Douche is in the eye of the beholder. I always get a kick out of how different people see other people in opposite lights, especially when I hear from both sides about that third party. Many times it's just a personality clash.

I don't think you're a douche in general. I don't particularly like the way you choose to debate, but whatever.
 
Mathiäs;10559838 said:
I don't think you're a douche in general. I don't particularly like the way you choose to debate, but whatever.

Probably because I enjoy it too much, I bait and use other such douchey debating tactics lol
 
That's not why. You're just a douche, it's biological haha. Now shuddup, stupid, you stink and you're finished.

happy-i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg
 
@ Ein: Frankly I think there's much more to it than I understand, and I think [you] are oversimplifying it, in the same way we once had a much larger list of "vestigials" than we do now.

Me? Oversimplify? :cool:

I personally see my own approach as infinitely complicated and impossible to boil down in any way. I'm suggesting that there is no "self," but that what we call the self is an illusion brought about by consciousness (whose implications I'll discuss below), and in fact is nothing more than a certain amalgamation of material factors working together (not intentionally, mind you) to produce the image of a subject.

Now, what kinds of questions does this raise?? For starters, how does consciousness come about? Traditionally it was thought that there must be a "self" to which consciousness takes hold, so to speak. If there is no self, how does consciousness even happen? What combination of factors must come together to allow for consciousness? And must it always be the same combination?

Why do we perceive things subjectively and causally? These are the two primary representational models that "imagine" us (i.e. put us into perspective) as selves. How are we able to communicate with one another? How does life, or whatever we call "life," spring from inorganic matter? How do we differentiate organic from inorganic? Where do we draw the line? And when it crosses the line, how does energy become "conscious"?

These are all questions that I don't have answers to, although I have theories, and none of them appeal to any metaphysical notion of "self-hood." Instead, I am utterly fascinated by the possibility that human beings are "self-less" conscious organisms that can perceive of themselves as conscious selves. I'm fascinated that through careful thought we can come to distinguish between terms such as "self" and "subject" (which is not making mountains out of molehills, as you sometimes claim, but is in fact indicative of careful scrutiny about the human condition). In short, I'm more fascinated by my understanding of life than any archaic notion of unique individual selves or religious/spiritual teleology.

Ein, do you not believe human beings have an inherent nature? Do you approve of the blank slate theory?

I don't believe that humans have an inherent nature; but I don't identify this as Lockean "blank slate." I do think that genetics matter, and I believe that certain individuals are predisposed toward certain behavior and/or personalities. I don't, however, see any of this as contributing to a unique self. The self requires consciousness to acknowledge itself; I don't believe that pre-conscious organisms can be said to have any kind of "self," genetic or otherwise. Genes and biology are only material factors that go toward creating an organism that we would say fulfills the basic requirements for life, seeking sustenance and fighting for its survival. There is no "self" for organisms such as this. The self is something that only appears when organisms achieve consciousness; and even then, it's an illusion.

Our notions of what constitutes "human" need not appeal even to organisms that we classify as human. We might say that to be "human" one requires a certain genetic makeup and biology, and must exhibit certain behavioral traits. There will, however, always be exceptions to this rule. What about people with intense mental illnesses who do not behave in a "human" manner? What about humans with genetic defects? What about artificial intelligence that might come to speak and behave entirely like a human? Don't we have an ethical responsibility to this thing that, biologically, is not human?

My understanding suggests that we would have such an ethical responsibility because the appearance of consciousness is just that: an appearance, even to us. Thus, it can "appear" for other organisms or entities as well. How could we tell the difference between someone who "truly had consciousness" and someone who was "faking it"? Does one need consciousness in order to "fake it"? In a sense, consciousness might be nothing more than the appearance of consciousness; but this doesn't make it any less important for those "selves" that appear to possess it. If consciousness is nothing more than an extremely complex result of material conditions, then why can't other organisms/entities possess it? Why must it be restricted to "the human"? This throws our entire understanding of what it means to be "human" out the window, in my opinion.
 
So you champion nature but deny the reality or efficacy of consciousness? Consciousness, in your view, is either a myth or a useless byproduct of brain or other motions, If I am understanding this right this amounts to the advocacy of existence without consciousness, no?
 
So you champion nature but deny the reality or efficacy of consciousness? Consciousness, in your view, is either a myth or a useless byproduct of brain or other motions, If I am understanding this right this amounts to the advocacy of existence without consciousness, no?

Just to reiterate one quick point:

In a sense, consciousness might be nothing more than the appearance of consciousness; but this doesn't make it any less important for those "selves" that appear to possess it.

I'm not willing to admit that consciousness is indubitably an illusion; the self, I believe, is. Why does consciousness need a self in order to operate? Doesn't it make more sense that the "self" only appears after the advent/onset/appearance of consciousness?

The reason I'm not willing to admit that consciousness is an illusion is that this raises problems for which I have no answer. For instance, I think almost everyone would agree that human beings appear to have consciousness. If we admit the facticity of consciousness's appearing to us, how is this any different from actually possessing it? It reminds me of Baudrillard's postmodern notion of the simulacrum/simulation. How does one tell a "real" bank robbery from a "fake," or "staged" bank robbery? This is not a one-to-one analogy, but it helps illuminate the point. If we appear conscious to ourselves, then I don't see how this is any different from actually being conscious.

That said, I'm not advocating existence one way or another; all I'm trying to do is think critically and unlimitedly (not possible, but we can still try our best) about what consciousness is and what it entails. Advocating one over another would be to evaluate them based on anthropocentric principles, and I'm trying to avoid that. I do find credibility in the claims of certain biologists and neuro-scientists working in the field today who argue that consciousness inhibits survival existence; that is, consciousness is an evolutionary fluke (entirely contingent, not the result of life striving toward some ultimate goal) that separates human beings from immediate, instinctual existence. There are many forms of life that operate far more efficiently than human beings, that can tolerate remarkably harsh environments and have persisted far longer than homo sapiens or even hominids.

Furthermore, I don't equate consciousness with intelligence. Intelligence cannot be measured purely by an organism's ability to reflect upon its own thought and action. A colony of ants, taken as a whole, is undoubtedly more intelligent than a single human being. And finally, I don't think that consciousness must necessarily be human consciousness.

I realize I answered more than you asked, so I hope the point didn't get too muddled.
 
Correct, although this shouldn't preclude us from asking the question or entertaining the notion, even at a somewhat serious level. Such preclusion would be to take a step toward anthropomorphizing consciousness.

We need to maintain the space for ethical considerations, especially in our current technological environment. For instance, I think we all would agree that a computer that appears to exhibit consciousness to such an extent that it fools human beings into thinking that it (i.e. the computer) was also human deserves ethical recognition/treatment. This is the old situation of the Turing test, or "Turing's Game." However, we also have to differentiate between intelligence and consciousness. This is the slightly less-old situation of Searle's "Chinese room."
 
I would think differentiating between intelligence and consciousness should be a given, at least within the relative group. [All] humans are conscious, yet with varying levels of intelligence (maybe even independently varying levels of consciousness).
 
Why are you obsessed with pointing out relativity? Do you think I'm overlooking it? :cool:

Yes, it's relative to an extent, depending on definition; I'm saying that many people assume human beings to be de facto more intelligent than other animals. Humans mistakenly absolutize intelligence in this context.
 
Why are you obsessed with pointing out relativity? Do you think I'm overlooking it? :cool:

Yes, it's relative to an extent, depending on definition; I'm saying that many people assume human beings to be de facto more intelligent than other animals. Humans mistakenly absolutize intelligence in this context.

No I don't assume you do, but I know other people scan this thread. People are obviously more intelligent if we are comparing building houses to rooting in the dirt. The problem with any comparisons humans are going to use is it will be biased, not only because of what humans can do because of consciousness, but because of the disparity in natural ability. Humans don't have fangs or claws and are bipedal, so there will be things they simply can't do regardless of "intelligence", without employing consciousness and intelligence to create tools to overcome physical shortcomings. I think this is where the usual distinction is made: Animals do not, as a rule, innovate the way they interact with nature to accomplish new goals (since they don't generally create new goals). Incidentally, this leads to the Misesian/Austrian theory of infinite wants.
 
New goals are generally conceived due to the requirements of an organism's physical environment. Many species other than humans are excellent problem-solvers.
 
New goals are generally conceived due to the requirements of an organism's physical environment. Many species other than humans are excellent problem-solvers.

I'm not talking about the differences in a beaver dam from one body of water to the next. I'm talking about getting to the moon or forging steel.
 
Why aren't either of those necessitated by our physical environment? The space race was instigated and perpetuated by mutual political concerns, and steel was forged in order to create stronger material so that we could lay rail and build skyscrapers.