Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

But the whole point is that a "natural" aristocracy wouldn't be an aristocracy at all, right? It's a transvaluation of all values. Even including the label "natural" betrays the persistence of Western values (i.e. an idealization of the origin).

Yes, a natural aristocracy would be merely what is. Strength of will etc. Those "free spirits", "we philosophers", "we psychologists", etc would create their own values - this is aristocracy. I think the word aristocracy too often conjures a sort of very specific caricature that eclipses the more rudimentary aspect of the label which, nonetheless, still involves classes and therefore hierarchies of some sort.

Nietzsche may go on to talk about hierarchy, but a shrewd reading needs to resist the idea/notion of an organizational implementation of hierarchy. The concept of a "natural hierarchy" is a contradiction in terms; there is no hierarchy in nature, there just is what there is. We construct hierarchies around what we perceive as "natural" relationships.

Nietzsche uses the language of hierarchy, and in some ways his cultural conditioning likely results in some unconscious support of natural hierarchical organization; but the real reward of Nietzhsce's thinking actually allows us to deconstruct the notion of "natural hierarchy" as something that refutes itself. There is no natural hierarchy; there are only cultural hierarchies. Animals do not accord to positions of value or domination. They just do what they do.

So culture isn't natural? Tomato Tomahto. I would agree that Nietzsche isn't offering some "framework" of hierarchy. That is beside the point that he specifically castigates leveling.
 
Yes, a natural aristocracy would be merely what is. Strength of will etc. Those "free spirits", "we philosophers", "we psychologists", etc would create their own values - this is aristocracy. I think the word aristocracy too often conjures a sort of very specific caricature that eclipses the more rudimentary aspect of the label which, nonetheless, still involves classes and therefore hierarchies of some sort.

Ah! But a Nietzschean "ubermensch" society wouldn't need to establish its own values. This is the weird conflict in his idea. He prefers people to simply do what they would do, without fear of judgment or accusation (from, say, Christians); and then a "natural" order would emerge from this. There shouldn't be any need to establish values because the values would simply be what is - and thus wouldn't be values.

So culture isn't natural? Tomato Tomahto. I would agree that Nietzsche isn't offering some "framework" of hierarchy. That is beside the point that he specifically castigates leveling.

Nietzsche is suggesting that some kind of natural order wouldn't need to rationalize, or justify, or establish itself - it's a very difficult thing to imagine, because as humans we instantly begin to attribute value accordingly to certain patterns, especially those that temporarily "work," (a tendentious claim) and perpetuate those patterns as organization/hierarchy.

Nietzsche wants to bypass the entire need for rationalization. In his theory, hierarchy wouldn't require justification; but the irony is that this wouldn't be hierarchy.

Furthermore (and this is the step Nietzsche doesn't quite make), I'm not saying that culture isn't natural. I'm saying that even proposing that something can be "natural" is ridiculous because nothing is natural! This is one of the most basic ruptures in logic that still manages to permeate common thought. "Nature" itself is something we construct and then idealize as somehow coming before us. "There is no nature, only the effects of nature"; or, in other words, nothing can ever be established permanently as a kind of "absolute nature." Nietzsche's philosophy doesn't propose the possibility of any kind of remotely secure or stable hierarchy - it exposes that all hierarchy is unstable, even the glorious "uber-hierarchy" that he would have come into being.
 
Ah! But a Nietzschean "ubermensch" society wouldn't need to establish its own values. This is the weird conflict in his idea. He prefers people to simply do what they would do, without fear of judgment or accusation (from, say, Christians); and then a "natural" order would emerge from this. There shouldn't be any need to establish values because the values would simply be what is - and thus wouldn't be values.

Nietzsche is suggesting that some kind of natural order wouldn't need to rationalize, or justify, or establish itself - it's a very difficult thing to imagine, because as humans we instantly begin to attribute value accordingly to certain patterns, especially those that temporarily "work," (a tendentious claim) and perpetuate those patterns as organization/hierarchy.

Nietzsche wants to bypass the entire need for rationalization. In his theory, hierarchy wouldn't require justification; but the irony is that this wouldn't be hierarchy.

I'll agree with this in general, both that Nietzsche wants to bypass rationalization and normatization, but only insofar as normatization and rationalization is driven by life "disaffirming" herd mentality. Normatization reduces conflicts, and the constant use of "we" by Nietzsche does more than merely suggest that free spirits should be "on the same side", at least as it relates to the not "we".

His railings are against rationalization processes and the normatism of Christian/enlightenment ideals.

Furthermore (and this is the step Nietzsche doesn't quite make), I'm not saying that culture isn't natural. I'm saying that even proposing that something can be "natural" is ridiculous because nothing is natural! This is one of the most basic ruptures in logic that still manages to permeate common thought. "Nature" itself is something we construct and then idealize as somehow coming before us. "There is no nature, only the effects of nature"; or, in other words, nothing can ever be established permanently as a kind of "absolute nature." Nietzsche's philosophy doesn't propose the possibility of any kind of remotely secure or stable hierarchy - it exposes that all hierarchy is unstable, even the glorious "uber-hierarchy" that he would have come into being.

I was referencing the "natural/artificial" distinction. One way to discuss the elimination of the distinction is to refer to everything as natural. Or, we can take the Nietzschean tack (in doing away with the illusory world, we have also done away with the "real world"!). Still, tomato-tomahto.

I meant to point this out in the prior post, but stating that Nietzsche gives us the insight or the tools as it were, to move into deconstruction of the subject, is an entirely different statement, and infinitely more agreeable, than to say a "more shrewd" reading would do this. The latter suggests at Nietzsche's real intent, or that Nietzsche supported etc. Two things that really need to be cleared up in regards to both the deconstructive core theory and and Nietzsche: Neither one supports in any way to the progressive hydra. Both go "men as such - women as such" and then the progressive take stops reading and starts vomiting ink about how enlightened what they just read is.

I'll go further and defend Nietzsche as recognizing that deconstruction was a potential outcome of the unchaining, and that even he did not desire that. Stare not too long into the abyss. The deconstructed subject winds up with a ridiculous mustache and in diapers.
 
I'll agree with this in general, both that Nietzsche wants to bypass rationalization and normatization, but only insofar as normatization and rationalization is driven by life "disaffirming" herd mentality. Normatization reduces conflicts, and the constant use of "we" by Nietzsche does more than merely suggest that free spirits should be "on the same side", at least as it relates to the not "we".

His railings are against rationalization processes and the normatism of Christian/enlightenment ideals.

Okay.

I was referencing the "natural/artificial" distinction. One way to discuss the elimination of the distinction is to refer to everything as natural. Or, we can take the Nietzschean tack (in doing away with the illusory world, we have also done away with the "real world"!). Still, tomato-tomahto.

I don't think you can say "tomato-tomahto" in reference to this; but that's possibly for a much larger discussion on language and ideology. "Natural" and "artificial" carry cultural values and suggestive undertones that are not symmetrical.

I meant to point this out in the prior post, but stating that Nietzsche gives us the insight or the tools as it were, to move into deconstruction of the subject, is an entirely different statement, and infinitely more agreeable, than to say a "more shrewd" reading would do this. The latter suggests at Nietzsche's real intent, or that Nietzsche supported etc.

By now, you should know that I never make claims as to an author's "real intent." :cool:

I merely meant that by reading more closely we can discover the tools embedded within Nietzsche's writings for critiquing even those same writings. The foreshadowing of deconstruction is in Nietzsche's work, that's for sure; and if we want to be shrewd readers, then we have to acknowledge the irreconcilability of that presence with some of his more traditional sentiments. Nietzsche may have recognized this as well, but at some point every writer has to make concessions - or else your book will never be finished.

Two things that really need to be cleared up in regards to both the deconstructive core theory and and Nietzsche: Neither one supports in any way to the progressive hydra. Both go "men as such - women as such" and then the progressive take stops reading and starts vomiting ink about how enlightened what they just read is.

I'll go further and defend Nietzsche as recognizing that deconstruction was a potential outcome of the unchaining, and that even he did not desire that. Stare not too long into the abyss. The deconstructed subject winds up with a ridiculous mustache and in diapers.

I don't think you can say he didn't desire it. All he wrote was: "Stare not long into the abyss. The abyss stares also back at you." There's no sense of an author's desire here. It's merely an aphorism, a statement. The compulsion of Nietzsche's philosophy is toward the abyss; if that is something he desires, or admonishes, then he breaks his own rule over and over again (eternally, and recurrently).

Also, being faithful to the translation of "ubermensch," we have to acknowledge the possibility that Nietzsche understood this not as a kind of supreme version of humanity, but as something entirely beyond humanity - or as something that is, explicitly, not human. We tend to think of "uber" as meaning ultimate or supreme, but in German it can also suggest transcendence or some kind of otherness. Furthermore, Nietzsche does not speak these words on the ubermensch - Zarathustra does...

Finally, Nietzsche's entire philosophy is compromised by the core antagonism that he exposes between truth and appearance - or between the world-as-we-perceive-it and the world-as-is, or something like that. Ultimately there is no reconciliation here, and Nietzsche acknowledges that point:

Our "new world": we have to realize to what degree we are the creators of our value feelings - and thus capable of projecting "meaning" into history. This faith in truth attains its ultimate conclusion in us - you know what that is: that if there is anything that is to be worshipped it is appearance that must be worshipped, that the lie - and not the truth - is divine!
 
I thought it was refreshing for one of the black city officials to refer to the rioters (which, in overwhelming majority are black) as "thugs" (edit: waits for someone to jump in and argue about the origin of the pejorative label). I was in Baltimore just a few days ago for a baseball game, glad I missed all this.
 
It should be calm here by then, as long as city officials don't announce whether or not some of the cops involved in Freddie Gray's death will be indicted on the same weekend. Even if something is going on--and I doubt riots on this scale will break out again--so long as your friends don't act like the dumb fucks at the Orioles game on Saturday and taunt the protesters, they have nothing to worry about.
 
Unsure if this is some pre-emptive 'anti-PC' statement or what.

Yeah it was, and I didn't mean argue as in disputing the origin, arguing that "omgz guyz that can only be used to denigrate Indianz!"

Thugs engage in thuggish behavior, claim the label thug, tweet, tumbl, and instagram about "thuglife", guns/grillz/chedda, or whatever slang is used to denote money these days.

Referring back to that comment about refreshing, I must retract that sentiment. That was the mayor - the same mayor who ordered the police to give the thugs "space to destroy". I would make some comment about behaving like a 3rd world city, but I think that would be unfair to 3rd world countries. They know how to crack down on feral youth. While there are a multitude of systemic issues, throwing up the hands and going "well they have a right to be mad so lets let 'em pillage and burn" only serves to make things worse.
 
After the assassination of MLK:

James Baldwin said:
Who is looting whom? Grabbing off the TV set? He doesn’t really want the TV set. He’s saying screw you. It’s a judgment, by the way, on the value of the TV set. Everyone knows that’s a crock of shit. He doesn’t want the TV set. He doesn’t want it. He wants to let you know he’s there. The question I’m trying to raise is a very serious question. The mass media – television and all the major news agencies – endlessly use that word ‘looter.’ On television you always see black hands reaching in, you know. And so the American public concludes that these savages are trying to steal everything from us. And no one has seriously tried to get to where the trouble is. After all, you’re accusing a captive population who has been robbed of everything by looting. I think it’s obscene.
 
I don't recall white people looting shit after JFK was assassinated. Not relevant? Oh yeah, that was ~50 years ago also. Not racially related? Neither was the MLK assassination.

Baltimore has a black (female!) mayor and a black police commissioner, and the thugs still don't care. Ferguson looters were lucky enough to have more convenient excuses, but when you want to riot, any excuse is good enough. Like winning/losing sports games if you're white and feral.
 
I don't recall white people looting shit after JFK was assassinated. Not relevant?

Of course it's relevant. White people aren't black.

Oh yeah, that was ~50 years ago also. Not racially related? Neither was the MLK assassination.

Fifty years ago wasn't that long ago. And the MLK assassination was definitely racially related; it wasn't a crime of passion.

Baltimore has a black (female!) mayor and a black police commissioner, and the thugs still don't care. Ferguson looters were lucky enough to have more convenient excuses, but when you want to riot, any excuse is good enough. Like winning/losing sports games if you're white and feral.

You think the excuses end at the limits of a district?
 
Of course it's relevant. White people aren't black.

Fifty years ago wasn't that long ago. And the MLK assassination was definitely racially related; it wasn't a crime of passion.

The JFK assassination and MLK assassination were alike enough in terms of both time and perps (well, we know MLK was done killed by elements of the government, only a short while longer before we know the same about JFK). Neither was a crime of passion, and neither were about race.

You think the excuses end at the limits of a district?

I don't know what you're getting at.

Le sigh. It doesn't matter the percentage of looters. It doesn't matter that on all accounts many of the police are thugs as well. Torching a CVS or what-have-you in response makes the situation worse. Period. Fullstop. Maybe the looters/torchers are actually undercover police discrediting the protest. Not like that's anything new. Maybe it's opportunists from out of town. But that would involve those durned kunspercy theories, and we won't be having any of that.

Hell, maybe it's all those damned veterans coming back looking for a new war like some CNN anchor "repeated as a concern". On that note, and on the racism issue, here's an interesting photo:

citizenwall.jpg


Black guys lined up protecting police, at least some of whom are white. One guy has a veteran cap on, but I'd bet that at least 4 of the nearest 6 guys are vets, based on face/body language.
 
The JFK assassination and MLK assassination were alike enough in terms of both time and perps (well, we know MLK was done killed by elements of the government, only a short while longer before we know the same about JFK). Neither was a crime of passion, and neither were about race.

Yes it was.

Well, this is fun. :cool:

I don't know what you're getting at.

You seem to be saying that black people should be somehow appeased simply because Baltimore has a black mayor, as though this somehow precludes racism as a possibility.

I'm saying that's a dumb thing to say.
 
Yes it was.

Well, this is fun. :cool:

In what respects was it racially motivated? The family thinks it was related to efforts to protest the Vietnam War (at least in part for the redirection of government funds towards fighting poverty). Whether or not it is true of JFK, that is one of the theories surrounding his death as well. Being black didn't "help" MLK, but being white didn't help JFK either.

You seem to be saying that black people should be somehow appeased simply because Baltimore has a black mayor, as though this somehow precludes racism as a possibility.

I'm saying that's a dumb thing to say.

In the context of complaints about a lack of representation, it should be somewhat appeasing, but it obviously isn't. Ratchet engage.