Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[CiG]

I would argue that Communism fails every time because its core ideas are negative.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think that, like every set of political principles, it has elements that work and those that don't.

 

[CiG]

Which elements work?

 

[Dak]

So having ecological concerns automatically makes someone a Gaia-loving hippie? You're being very presumptuous.

Man, you're an asshole sometimes. I'll admit that anecdotal evidence isn't convincing, but seeing as I actually know people who went to the march, and you probably don't know anyone, I'll go with my anecdotal evidence over your lack thereof.

Having ecological concerns doesn't make one a happy, and a fleeting moment of belonging doesn't fill existential voids. When people volunteer to do something we can assume they derive at least some joy from it - joy they aren't getting elsewhere. Energy in search of a cause, something "bigger than themselves".

I'm at times confused what you find assholeish. My statement was based on a series of rather mundane facts.
1. Five factor personality tests have shown the northeast to be generally high on Neuroticism (which is linked to a higher prevalence of mood disorders, etc.) Some studies have also found higher incidents of reported mental health issues in the northeast, but there are some problems with that due to differences in education and treatment availability - that is, people in the northeast are more acquainted with the problems and able to access care for it.
2. Women use therapy at a higher rate than men.
3. Psychoanalysis is still popular in the northeast. There's even a graduate school of psychodynamics in Boston.

Combine all of that with my original assertion and it's a rather banal statement. It may not describe particular people you know, but happy people full of some other purpose aren't generally drawn to mass protests.

I'm sorry, if you haven't seen it then you're just choosing not to see it. I consider science to be a cornerstone of my studies. I teach courses on "literature and science" (I'm teaching one now), and I have books on physics, cognitive science, and genetics on my bookshelf. If I'm occasionally critical of science, that's because I'm also a humanist; but that doesn't make me non-scientific. I've never privileged humanities over science, nor have I ever claimed that the humanities are more important than science.

As much as I talk about science on this forum, you saying you "haven't seen it" is a fucking joke.

I've always understood your interest in science as limited to mostly theoretical aspects - AI, space travel, etc., and particularly what their implications were, rather than "nuts and bolts". That was my what I meant when I said I don't see it.

You're attributing negative qualities to a text based on the fact that people have manipulated it to violent ends. That doesn't mean the object itself has negative qualities.

Negative or not, it offers transcendence, which is why no amount of failure in various applications has been able to relegate it to the dust bins of history. Religions and transcendent secular ideologies offer meaning and give purpose (and potentially "immortality").

 

[Einherjar86]

My main problem is that you're drawing a very, very general picture of people on one side of the political spectrum (i.e. liberal, leftist, democratic, etc.) as being concerned with non-issues, because they're too comfortable in life (or some such nonsense) and so perceive problems and discomfort where there are none.

You mentioned populism somewhere along the line to cover your bases, but you're primarily accusing leftists here of making mountains out of molehills. And you've elsewhere said that Rust Belt voters actually do have legitimate things to complain about. So I know, in general, where your sympathies lie.

It may not describe particular people you know, but happy people full of some other purpose aren't generally drawn to mass protests.

You made a comment, shortly after I said that I went to the protest in Boston, saying that you don't have time to go mill about in streets. Aside from this being a condescending comment, and aside from the fact that the Boston march (several of them, in fact) was a lot more than people milling about in streets, a lot of women that I know couldn't attend the march because (*gasp*) they had to go to work. The march was on a weekend, and a lot of people who work service jobs couldn't get off.

My wife and I have jobs that keep us busy during the week, so we had the luxury of going to the march. Additionally, I think it's safe to say that we both feel a good deal of happiness in our lives. What's more, I think it's safe to say that my colleagues do as well. What's more, I think it's safe to say that a hell of a lot of people at the march, many of whom had the financial security to go to the march on a Saturday, feel fine with their lives.

You paint the group as, in general, a mass of depressed women who feel unfulfilled, and therefore go to marches because they have nothing better to do. But in fact, a lot of people took time out of their Saturday to go to something they feel strongly about, not to go do something because they have little else going for them. A lot of people took their kids. It was an event structured around respective political views and a general disdain for the politics in office. Your impression of the marchers isn't only inaccurate, it's also dripping with political bias and, on top of that, it's arrogant and condescending.

I've always understood your interest in science as limited to mostly theoretical aspects - AI, space travel, etc., and particularly what their implications were, rather than "nuts and bolts". That was my what I meant when I said I don't see it.

Even if that's true, saying I don't understand the scientific method? Come on Dak.

Negative or not, it offers transcendence, which is why no amount of failure in various applications has been able to relegate it to the dust bins of history. Religions and transcendent secular ideologies offer meaning and give purpose (and potentially "immortality").

Okay, but I object to your use of "transcendent." I obviously resist appeals to transcendence, which I realize is what you're doing too. But you don't need transcendence in order to arrive at meaning. You're using "transcendence" in an accusatory manner, and it's partially misplaced.

 

[CiG]

Speaking of political bias, would you similarly say that elements of Nazism work? How about Fascism?

 

[Dak]

My main problem is that you're drawing a very, very general picture of people on one side of the political spectrum (i.e. liberal, leftist, democratic, etc.) as being concerned with non-issues, because they're too comfortable in life (or some such nonsense) and so perceive problems and discomfort where there are none.

You mentioned populism somewhere along the line to cover your bases, but you're primarily accusing leftists here of making mountains out of molehills. And you've elsewhere said that Rust Belt voters actually do have legitimate things to complain about. So I know, in general, where your sympathies lie.

But how did the Rust Belt voters show their frustration? Voting. I'm not a big fan of democracy either, but marching to the voting both is a more direct path to change than chanting and holding signs, or listening to speakers. It doesn't have to be leftists, but that particular format ("marches") seems to be a leftist thing for whatever reason.

Women do not have it worse than men in the US, currently, as a group. They live longer, are more educated, didn't experience the same loss of jobs as men during the "Recession", have preferential treatment under the law when in disputes with men, and even make more money (if under 30). They also are not under any sort of threat of reversal of this situation.

Compare this with Rust Belters as a group: Dying earlier, less educated, having their industries hollowed out over 2-3 decades by trade deals and regulations, and increasingly poor. Yes, I sympathize with people with problems. There's nothing left-right about it.

What's more, I think it's safe to say that a hell of a lot of people at the march, many of whom had the financial security to go to the march on a Saturday, feel fine with their lives.

Your impression of the marchers isn't only inaccurate, it's also dripping with political bias and, on top of that, it's arrogant and condescending.

I would be equally disdainful of a march if Hillary was in office, so if there's political bias, it's not specifically turned at marchers because of their politics. They offer a feeling of belonging, but functionally it merely dissipates energy. I'm not sure there's a way to categorically dismiss marches without appearing condescending but if so, I apologize.

Even if that's true, saying I don't understand the scientific method? Come on Dak.

That's not what I meant but at this point I don't remember/care where this was from/going. I'll concede whatever I said was probably wrong.

Okay, but I object to your use of "transcendent." I obviously resist appeals to transcendence, which I realize is what you're doing too. But you don't need transcendence in order to arrive at meaning. You're using "transcendence" in an accusatory manner, and it's partially misplaced.

It's not accusatory. I'm saying transcendence is something that appears to be commonly desired, if not necessary, for human happiness. This is why Western institutions appear to be beginning to flounder, they lack anything remotely transcendent.

 

[Einherjar86]

But how did the Rust Belt voters show their frustration? Voting. I'm not a big fan of democracy either, but marching to the voting both is a more direct path to change than chanting and holding signs, or listening to speakers. It doesn't have to be leftists, but that particular format ("marches") seems to be a leftist thing for whatever reason.

Just let people march if that's what they want to do, why do you have to mock people for it?

Women do not have it worse than men in the US, currently, as a group. They live longer, are more educated, didn't experience the same loss of jobs as men during the "Recession", have preferential treatment under the law when in disputes with men, and even make more money (if under 30). They also are not under any sort of threat of reversal of this situation.

Compare this with Rust Belters as a group: Dying earlier, less educated, having their industries hollowed out over 2-3 decades by trade deals and regulations, and increasingly poor. Yes, I sympathize with people with problems. There's nothing left-right about it.

Women do have it worse than men, in several respects.

It's a political position either way, for me and for you. Women have made measurable strides over the past hundred years or so, but that doesn't mean they have it better off, and it doesn't mean that cultural attitudes toward women are exactly enlightened. An example would be the way that women are talked about and treated within predominantly male careers, or the way that business culture perceives women and constructs expectations regarding their behavior at work. In my opinion, this is just as important as everything you mentioned.

But I'm sure that comment will incite a backlash from you and maybe others, and I don't at all feel like having that discussion.

I would be equally disdainful of a march if Hillary was in office, so if there's political bias, it's not specifically turned at marchers because of their politics. They offer a feeling of belonging, but functionally it merely dissipates energy. I'm not sure there's a way to categorically dismiss marches without appearing condescending but if so, I apologize.

You could start by just not getting so frustrated by the fact that people are marching. I'm not sure what the problem is--especially since, as I'm saying, your characterization of people there doesn't seem accurate to me.

It's not accusatory. I'm saying transcendence is something that appears to be commonly desired, if not necessary, for human happiness. This is why Western institutions appear to be beginning to flounder, they lack anything remotely transcendent.

I don't think that's convincing, although I do of course agree that plenty of people want to believe in some kind of more profound meaning. But I think you can also argue that plenty of people do exhibit confidence in the transcendence of their beliefs, or politics, or behavior, what have you. I just think some people's transcendent motivations are in conflict with others'.

In other words, maybe we have too many people who believe too much in the transcendence of their values.

Which elements work?

Distribution of wealth works, depending on the degree and mechanism.

I'm all for welfare programs and various institutions responsible for public funding. I think they need to be combined with market practices though.

Speaking of political bias, would you similarly say that elements of Nazism work? How about Fascism?

How can I say "yes" and not be taken for a sympathizer?

But yes, all political programs succeed or fail based on a balance of principles. Nationalism works, as Dak has argued before--but you can have nationalism without racially motivated internment and genocide.

 

[rms]

Speaking of political bias, would you similarly say that elements of Nazism work? How about Fascism?

of course. Nazism and Fascism worked because of extreme nationalism, it's just that all human created systems have flaws, and those systems promoted more flaws than good IMO. Communism attempts to remove systemic economic inequality, it's just that everyone is poor except those in power, and those in power control everything

An example would be the way that women are talked about and treated within predominantly male careers, or the way that business culture perceives women and constructs expectations regarding their behavior at work.

I always wanted to act like this kind of person on Tinder or in real life and see what the hetero female's response to this is. Do they get excited, wet, eroused when they hear men speak like this? It really makes me curious

 

[CiG]

Fair enough.

 

[Dak]

Just let people march if that's what they want to do, why do you have to mock people for it?

You're acting like it's just some like, preference thing like a type of beer or something, or a hobby like geocaching or something. However, at best it's an attempt to inspire people to take action, at worst it's an attempt at intimidation of opposing politicians and/or electorate (I think it's both an attempt to inspire and to intimidate).

Women do have it worse than men, in several respects.

It's a political position either way, for me and for you. Women have made measurable strides over the past hundred years or so, but that doesn't mean they have it better off, and it doesn't mean that cultural attitudes toward women are exactly enlightened. An example would be the way that women are talked about and treated within predominantly male careers, or the way that business culture perceives women and constructs expectations regarding their behavior at work. In my opinion, this is just as important as everything you mentioned.

But I'm sure that comment will incite a backlash from you and maybe others, and I don't at all feel like having that discussion.

Individual interpersonal or single corporate issues may be important to the individual, but they are not objective econolegal issues or measures. I do think it's more important that the current socioedueconolegal structure is quite rigged against males across the lifespan as opposed to 16-30 year old women having to put up with male attention from men they consider outside their optimal mating target range.

You could start by just not getting so frustrated by the fact that people are marching. I'm not sure what the problem is--especially since, as I'm saying, your characterization of people there doesn't seem accurate to me.

I'm not "frustrated". People can march all they want. I just find it problematic from all perspectives. Any frustration I might feel is towards root ills - marching is a symptom.

I don't think that's convincing, although I do of course agree that plenty of people want to believe in some kind of more profound meaning. But I think you can also argue that plenty of people do exhibit confidence in the transcendence of their beliefs, or politics, or behavior, what have you. I just think some people's transcendent motivations are in conflict with others'.

In other words, maybe we have too many people who believe too much in the transcendence of their values.

It appears you're arguing against my is with an ought. Obviously different offerings of transcendence conflict, that's inherent in transcendence. This is why the most cohesive and effective social organizations have shared goals - the more transcendent the better.

 

[Einherjar86]

You're acting like it's just some like, preference thing like a type of beer or something, or a hobby like geocaching or something. However, at best it's an attempt to inspire people to take action, at worst it's an attempt at intimidation of opposing politicians and/or electorate (I think it's both an attempt to inspire and to intimidate).

I'm not "frustrated". People can march all they want. I just find it problematic from all perspectives. Any frustration I might feel is towards root ills - marching is a symptom.

That's the problem. You assume there are "root ills." Quite an assumption to make.

Individual interpersonal or single corporate issues may be important to the individual, but they are not objective econolegal issues or measures. I do think it's more important that the current socioedueconolegal structure is quite rigged against males across the lifespan as opposed to 16-30 year old women having to put up with male attention from men they consider outside their optimal mating target range.

Your evidence that it's "rigged against men" is based on a select number of cases in which women have levied accusations against men. The truth you don't want to acknowledge is that women suffer humiliation and discomfort from men at a much higher rate than women pursue legal action against men. They fear doing so in many cases because they don't want to lose their jobs. Saying that the system is unequivocally rigged against men is reductive and naive.

And I hope your answer isn't that that's just how men are and that women need to get over it.

In the vast majority of cases, there isn't any consummated sexual interaction between men and women. It starts with unwanted advances and ends before any kind of sexual intercourse takes place. This doesn't mean that women haven't suffered at the hands of men.

It appears you're arguing against my is with an ought. Obviously different offerings of transcendence conflict, that's inherent in transcendence. This is why the most cohesive and effective social organizations have shared goals - the more transcendent the better.

I don't think you're keeping your argument straight.

Before you suggested that there's nothing "remotely transcendent" for people to latch on to; now you're saying that there are, in fact, numerous transcendent beliefs.

 

[Dak]

That's the problem. You assume there are "root ills." Quite an assumption to make.

So Trump isn't a symptom? Merely the ill itself?

Your evidence that it's "rigged against men" is based on a select number of cases in which women have levied accusations against men. The truth you don't want to acknowledge is that women suffer humiliation and discomfort from men at a much higher rate than women pursue legal action against men. They fear doing so in many cases because they don't want to lose their jobs. Saying that the system is unequivocally rigged against men is reductive and naive.

And I hope your answer isn't that that's just how men are and that women need to get over it.

Maybe it's just how women are and they need to get over it. Or maybe it's more complicated than that. I can quote case law. I can quote aggregate college attendance and GPA statistics. I can provide below 30 earnings statistics. I can provide sex based differences in job loss/gain from the recession. You're going to quote some individual cases of individual women felling rightly or wrongly that they were mistreated by individual men. You can't aggregate them because they are, by definition, heterogeneous (feel = subjective). That there may be a sizeable number that have this feeling may mean something, but it doesn't automatically indicate a truth of the feeling.

In the vast majority of cases, there isn't any consummated sexual interaction between men and women. It starts with unwanted advances and ends before any kind of sexual intercourse takes place. This doesn't mean that women haven't suffered at the hands of men.

I don't think you're keeping your argument straight.

Before you suggested that there's nothing "remotely transcendent" for people to latch on to; now you're saying that there are, in fact, numerous transcendent beliefs.

The west isn't currently isn't offering any transcendence. Marxism, or Christianity, or some form of nationalism, etc. are old and aging, and modern versions are often varying degrees of debased (particularly Christianity). Older ideas (some like to attach the label "zombie ideas") are reappearing because the "new idea" isn't transcendent. The new idea (not new as in the new millennium - new as in since the 60sish) is an ongoing atomistic, mostly reductionist materialism. While this "idea" may yield - as it is held - many material improvements, it is failing our holistic, social, organic nature (even if this failing is due to our flaws, not materially interpreted flaws in the ideas).

 

[Einherjar86]

So Trump isn't a symptom? Merely the ill itself?

I don't understand this comment.

Maybe it's just how women are and they need to get over it. Or maybe it's more complicated than that. I can quote case law. I can quote aggregate college attendance and GPA statistics. I can provide below 30 earnings statistics. I can provide sex based differences in job loss/gain from the recession. You're going to quote some individual cases of individual women felling rightly or wrongly that they were mistreated by individual men. You can't aggregate them because they are, by definition, heterogeneous (feel = subjective). That there may be a sizeable number that have this feeling may mean something, but it doesn't automatically indicate a truth of the feeling.

It doesn't have to indicate a "truth of the feeling." As you said, it means something. If most people in the building smell smoke, there's a chance that one or two of them is suffering hallucinations; but it's more likely that it's because there's a fire.

The west isn't currently isn't offering any transcendence.

I cannot keep your thinking on this straight. You seem to be bouncing around like a pinball.

 

[rms]

Just find it so preposterous to place the "male gaze" in the same league at how the system views men as expendable. Just asinine

 

[Dak]

I don't understand this comment.

There are causes and symptoms. You can view Trump as one or the other (obviously symptoms can perpetuate ills but there can be roots).I see root ills that have led to both the rise of Trump as well as the rise of marches that apparently you and others have participated in (all marches, and not only marches).

It doesn't have to indicate a "truth of the feeling." As you said, it means something. If most people in the building smell smoke, there's a chance that one or two of them is suffering hallucinations; but it's more likely that it's because there's a fire.

Smoke has objectively measurable causes. Fire is an objective phenomenon. Feelings are not objectively measurable nor are they objectively caused.

I cannot keep your thinking on this straight. You seem to be bouncing around like a pinball.

I think I'm being consistent on this. There are transcendent ideas that originated in the West, but they are "old". Nothing new from the west is transcendent. Neither are non-western ideas like Islam, but they haven't self-neutered with atomistic materialism.

 

[Einherjar86]

There are causes and symptoms. You can view Trump as one or the other (obviously symptoms can perpetuate ills but there can be roots).I see root ills that have led to both the rise of Trump as well as the rise of marches that apparently you and others have participated in (all marches, and not only marches).

Yes, but you see electing Trump as a qualifiably different kind of symptom than marching, the latter which you seem to treat with disdain. Not sure how many different ways I can tell you this.

Smoke has objectively measurable causes. Fire is an objective phenomenon. Feelings are not objectively measurable nor are they objectively caused.

It was a metaphor. But then you don't study language, so I wouldn't expect you to know that... (that's a jab at your earlier comment on science; I know you know what a metaphor is).

I won't descend into a spitting match over objectivity with you, since you seem determined to get me to renege on certain things I've said. In short, there is no objectively measurable quality of harassment; but if enough women complain about being uncomfortable or feeling pressured because of a man's comments, then it's a safe bet that that man should alter his behavior.

This isn't some grand conspiracy by all women to disarm men of their social penises.

In other words, even if there is no Paris meter against which to measure offensive behavior or feelings of discomfort, there are still effective means of determining correlation, which in many cases does exhibit a causal relationship. There are, and will always be, cases in which these relations are misread or misreported; but you can't just focus on these. You have to focus on the sweeping majority of cases and environments in which women feel less like agents and more like objects.

I think I'm being consistent on this. There are transcendent ideas that originated in the West, but they are "old". Nothing new from the west is transcendent. Neither are non-western ideas like Islam, but they haven't self-neutered with atomistic materialism.

This whole conversation demands multiple responses, because your general principles are that a) modern culture lacks transcendent qualities, b) people need transcendence or malaise sets in, and c) "old" transcendental ideas aren't amenable to material culture.

First, I think plenty of people find transcendence in modern culture. I think people find transcendence in science, in technology, no matter how much materialism continues to creep.

Second, I don't think we should find transcendence in these things, and I don't think we need to; so if modern material culture resists transcendentalism, then so be it. People need to learn that transcendental purpose might not exist. This doesn't mean that we can't find contextual purpose and meaning within the contingencies of modernity. It's a difficulty leap to make, but it's not impossible. Most people just don't want to put in the effort.

Finally, transcendentalism will persist despite the encroachment of technology and science. If gods don't exist, then there's no way to disprove their existence--so they'll continue to be a happy illusion.


I also feel compelled to share this, since it relates to the issue of transcendentalism in Marxism. This is a quote from Georg Lukacs, who is one of the beasts of orthodox Marxism in the twentieth century:

Let us assume for the sake of argument that recent research had disproved once and for all every one of Marx's individual theses. Even if this were to be proved, every serious "orthodox" Marxist would still be able to accept all such modern findings without reservation and hence dismiss all of Marx's theses in toto--without having to renounce his orthodoxy for a single moment. Orthodox Marxism, therefore, does not imply the uncritical acceptance of the results of Marx's investigations. It is not the "belief" in this or that thesis, nor the exegesis of a "sacred" book. On the contrary, orthodoxy refers exclusively to method. It is the scientific conviction that dialectical materialism is the road to truth and that its methods can be expanded and deepened only along the lines laid down by its founders.

If that's a seemingly contradictory passage, it's for good reason. The only transcendence, if we can call it that, in orthodox Marxism isn't the belief in the communist utopia; it is the practice and development of a method, it's the process behind materialist critique. It entails a willingness to reform in light of new scientific discoveries. This is in contrast to what those like Lukacs refer to as "vulgar Marxism."

 

[Einherjar86]

Say the human brain possessed two cognitive systems A and X, the one dedicated to prediction absent access to sources, the other dedicated to prediction via access to sources. And say the brain had various devious ways of combining these systems to solve even more problems. Now imagine the conscious subsystem mediating these systems is entirely insensitive to this structure, so that toggling between them leaves no trace in experience.

Now consider the manifest absurdity:

It is true that there is no such thing as truth.

If truth talk belonged to system A, and such thing talk belonged to system X, then it really could be true that there’s no such thing as truth. But given conscious insensitivity to this, we would have no way of discerning the distinct cognitive ecologies involved, and so presume One Big Happy Cognition by default. If there is no such thing as truth, we would cry, then no statement could be true.

How does one argue against that? short knowledge of the heuristic, fractionate structure of human cognition. Small wonder we’ve been so baffled by our attempts to make sense of ourselves! Our intuitions walk us into the same traps over and over.

Huh.

 

[Dak]

Yes, but you see electing Trump as a qualifiably different kind of symptom than marching, the latter which you seem to treat with disdain. Not sure how many different ways I can tell you this.

Because the faction electing Trump did so because they were tired of following the rules and being screwed, and so they responded by following the rules and have probably still been mostly screwed. The other faction only cares about the rules insofar as they provide the desired outcome. When the outcome isn't correct, it is the rules which are the problem.

It was a metaphor. But then you don't study language, so I wouldn't expect you to know that... (that's a jab at your earlier comment on science; I know you know what a metaphor is).

I won't descend into a spitting match over objectivity with you, since you seem determined to get me to renege on certain things I've said. In short, there is no objectively measurable quality of harassment; but if enough women complain about being uncomfortable or feeling pressured because of a man's comments, then it's a safe bet that that man should alter his behavior.

This isn't some grand conspiracy by all women to disarm men of their social penises.

In other words, even if there is no Paris meter against which to measure offensive behavior or feelings of discomfort, there are still effective means of determining correlation, which in many cases does exhibit a causal relationship. There are, and will always be, cases in which these relations are misread or misreported; but you can't just focus on these. You have to focus on the sweeping majority of cases and environments in which women feel less like agents and more like objects.

The sweeping majority of cases eh?

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ont-consider-themselves-feminists-poll-shows/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-...women-dont-want-to-call-themselves-feminists/


Of course 85% believe in equality, but obviously "feminism" and "equality" have become culturally disconnected. I don't believe this would be the case if in the "sweeping majority of cases" women were being ground under the patriarchical boot.

This whole conversation demands multiple responses, because your general principles are that a) modern culture lacks transcendent qualities, b) people need transcendence or malaise sets in, and c) "old" transcendental ideas aren't amenable to material culture.

First, I think plenty of people find transcendence in modern culture. I think people find transcendence in science, in technology, no matter how much materialism continues to creep.

Second, I don't think we should find transcendence in these things, and I don't think we need to; so if modern material culture resists transcendentalism, then so be it. People need to learn that transcendental purpose might not exist. This doesn't mean that we can't find contextual purpose and meaning within the contingencies of modernity. It's a difficulty leap to make, but it's not impossible. Most people just don't want to put in the effort.

Finally, transcendentalism will persist despite the encroachment of technology and science. If gods don't exist, then there's no way to disprove their existence--so they'll continue to be a happy illusion.

(a) I think people find faux transcendence in modern culture, which is why they hop from one faux option to another. (b) You're arguing ought vs is, and concluding by basically admitting as much. I don't think it has anything to do with effort. Sounds like a "poor people just need to work harder!" approach. (c) Yes.

I also feel compelled to share this, since it relates to the issue of transcendentalism in Marxism. This is a quote from Georg Lukacs, who is one of the beasts of orthodox Marxism in the twentieth century:

If that's a seemingly contradictory passage, it's for good reason. The only transcendence, if we can call it that, in orthodox Marxism isn't the belief in the communist utopia; it is the practice and development of a method, it's the process behind materialist critique. It entails a willingness to reform in light of new scientific discoveries. This is in contrast to what those like Lukacs refer to as "vulgar Marxism."

Nothing is perfect, and so even the best available option is open to critique. That says nothing about the value in a particular critique, and definitely nothing about the connected alternative.

 

[Einherjar86]

Because the faction electing Trump did so because they were tired of following the rules and being screwed, and so they responded by following the rules and have probably still been mostly screwed. The other faction only cares about the rules insofar as they provide the desired outcome. When the outcome isn't correct, it is the rules which are the problem.

I'm not sure if you know this, but most of the people who voted for Trump weren't actually blue-collar, working-class, Rust Belt voters. They more than likely pushed him into electoral victory, but the majority of people who voted for Trump were upper-middle class and wealthy voters.

These people haven't been screwed over.

https://newrepublic.com/article/138...ory-college-educated-whites-not-working-class

The sweeping majority of cases eh?

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ont-consider-themselves-feminists-poll-shows/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-...women-dont-want-to-call-themselves-feminists/

Of course 85% believe in equality, but obviously "feminism" and "equality" have become culturally disconnected. I don't believe this would be the case if in the "sweeping majority of cases" women were being ground under the patriarchical boot.

Well, you just rejoined your own rejoinder. Women don't need to consider themselves feminists in order for the kind of corporate culture I'm talking about to exist.

(a) I think people find faux transcendence in modern culture, which is why they hop from one faux option to another. (b) You're arguing ought vs is, and concluding by basically admitting as much. I don't think it has anything to do with effort. Sounds like a "poor people just need to work harder!" approach. (c) Yes.

a) It always was "faux transcendence." This is why I find this discussing strange.

b) I know. It isn't really an argument, I'm just saying that people "ought" to realize that we can find meaning without believing in transcendence.

c) Okay.

Nothing is perfect, and so even the best available option is open to critique. That says nothing about the value in a particular critique, and definitely nothing about the connected alternative.

Alright, thanks. Not really sure how to respond, this is kind of a vague comment. But whatever, it doesn't really matter.


Also, reposting this since it got lost at the bottom of the previous page:

Say the human brain possessed two cognitive systems A and X, the one dedicated to prediction absent access to sources, the other dedicated to prediction via access to sources. And say the brain had various devious ways of combining these systems to solve even more problems. Now imagine the conscious subsystem mediating these systems is entirely insensitive to this structure, so that toggling between them leaves no trace in experience.

Now consider the manifest absurdity:

It is true that there is no such thing as truth.

If truth talk belonged to system A, and such thing talk belonged to system X, then it really could be true that there’s no such thing as truth. But given conscious insensitivity to this, we would have no way of discerning the distinct cognitive ecologies involved, and so presume One Big Happy Cognition by default. If there is no such thing as truth, we would cry, then no statement could be true.

How does one argue against that? short knowledge of the heuristic, fractionate structure of human cognition. Small wonder we’ve been so baffled by our attempts to make sense of ourselves! Our intuitions walk us into the same traps over and over.

This is from Scott Bakker's blog. I find a lot of what Bakker says compelling, but it's at the level of something like meta-meta-cognition. Really abstract.