Dakryn's Batshit Theory of the Week

[Dak]

So you'd rather we allow transgendered children to be bullied and called names based on them being transgendered...simply because you're more concerned with the money lining your wallet...

You're more concerned about the feelings of some children than people being put into slavery? How do separate bathrooms prevent bullying?

If we want to play dichotomy games I can go all day.

I notice you didn't even touch the second half.

 

[Mort Divine]

What can I do about children in slavery in parts of the world that I am not close to? It is a shame that it happens, but outside of going and freeing them myself I am powerless to do anything about them.

I'm not going to do the equivalent those 'KONY' criers.

Transgendered people in this country, however, are something that if I can speak up and support I will. I went to school with a trans student and saw first hand the bullying they go through. Children are vicious enough without having something like this available to tear at people.

The other part of your post wasn't worth addressing. You're mixing the idea of gender roles with gender identity. Just because someone identifies as a woman doesn't mean they want to fit gender roles that typically fit with that gender.

A transgendered woman doesn't necessarily have to want to stay at home and run the household, much like a transgendered man doesn't have to go out and be the bread winner...

Same way cisgendered women and men don't have to subscribe to gender roles...

 

[Dak]

What can I do about children in slavery in parts of the world that I am not close to? It is a shame that it happens, but outside of going and freeing them myself I am powerless to do anything about them.

I'm not going to do the equivalent those 'KONY' criers.

Not even remotely what I was talking about. Creating a "3rd" type of bathroom means more tax dollars going to meet a special interest purpose. Forcing someone to create wealth for your own use makes them a slave. Ergo, making slaves of people for your own gain (in this case, a special bathroom).

Transgendered people in this country, however, are something that if I can speak up and support I will. I went to school with a trans student and saw first hand the bullying they go through. Children are vicious enough without having something like this available to tear at people.

Yes children are vicious. But how does a separate bathroom solve this? If anything it just gives more ammo. Not to mention all the logical dilemmas.

The other part of your post wasn't worth addressing. You're mixing the idea of gender roles with gender identity. Just because someone identifies as a woman doesn't mean they want to fit gender roles that typically fit with that gender.

A transgendered woman doesn't necessarily have to want to stay at home and run the household, much like a transgendered man doesn't have to go out and be the bread winner...

Same way cisgendered women and men don't have to subscribe to gender roles...

Sounds all well and good, these people are blazing new trails into new identities right? Except they aren't. They usually are "men trapped in women's bodies" or vice versa. Your Huffpost link had a whole little slideshow on that fact. So how do they go about showing this? One of two ways: Changing the anatomy and/or embracing an alternate binary gender role. Otherwise, if you look like a girl anatomically and embrace the traditional female binary role, yet want to be referred to as a "boy", who is going to really care? What difference does it even make?

 

[Mort Divine]

Not even remotely what I was talking about. Creating a "3rd" type of bathroom means more tax dollars going to meet a special interest purpose. Forcing someone to create wealth for your own use makes them a slave. Ergo, making slaves of people for your own gain (in this case, a special bathroom).

Then yes, I am more concerned about the feelings of people. Money means nothing compared to people being allowed to live their lives.

Yes children are vicious. But how does a separate bathroom solve this? If anything it just gives more ammo. Not to mention all the logical dilemmas.

There wouldn't, ideally, be a separate bathroom? They would just be allowed to use the bathroom that their gender coincides with, and students who bullied them over this would be harshly punished.

Sounds all well and good, these people are blazing new trails into new identities right? Except they aren't. They usually are "men trapped in women's bodies" or vice versa. Your Huffpost link had a whole little slideshow on that fact. So how do they go about showing this? One of two ways: Changing the anatomy and/or embracing an alternate binary gender role. Otherwise, if you look like a girl anatomically and embrace the traditional female binary role, yet want to be referred to as a "boy", who is going to really care? What difference does it even make?

What difference does it make? A world of difference. Maybe not to you, maybe not to the average person who doesn't pay attention to this...but it makes a difference to those who do not have a gender identity (and it is not our place to enforce our ideas of gender on how people identify themselves) that fits their biological sex.

The best wording of it that I've read came from Yahoo Answers of all places

'You really can't imagine, a priori of social roles, expectations, and expression, being physically uncomfortable with your own body to the point of suicidal depression because your brain constantly says the equipment you have is not the set you should have.'

 

[Dak]

Then yes, I am more concerned about the feelings of people. Money means nothing compared to people being allowed to live their lives.

Neat attempt to redefine the parameters. Money is (although somewhat decoupled in the global scale due to the Monopoly nature of it) the measure of your time and effort. Without out it, you are working for free, or more specifically, as a slave. So the state of Massachusetts has forced it's slaves to pay for a 3rd bathroom in schools so that people with 0 anatomical difference have identical places to shit and piss, thus providing more ammo for the vicious little kidlets. It fails on all levels. If they had simply issued a statement that all bathrooms are open to whoever wants to use them, they could have saved money and done more for "letting people live their lives".

Edit: Let's reverse this: What if a concerned conservative parents group had demanded a separate bathroom to segregate the transgenders? You'd be flipping your lid.

There wouldn't, ideally, be a separate bathroom? They would just be allowed to use the bathroom that their gender coincides with, and students who bullied them over this would be harshly punished.

and

What difference does it make? A world of difference. Maybe not to you, maybe not to the average person who doesn't pay attention to this...but it makes a difference to those who do not have a gender identity (and it is not our place to enforce our ideas of gender on how people identify themselves) that fits their biological sex.

The best wording of it that I've read came from Yahoo Answers of all places

'You really can't imagine, a priori of social roles, expectations, and expression, being physically uncomfortable with your own body to the point of suicidal depression because your brain constantly says the equipment you have is not the set you should have.'

Thank you for proving my previous point. Trans gender is not some new or different gender, it's the wish to be/feeling of being "the other". Which merely reinforces my initial point that transgenderism reinforces binary gender roles. It has to. The transgender person does not feel like their anatomy matches their feeling, so they attempt to switch over, either anatomically and/or in appearance/mannerisms. The appearance and mannerisms must be a parody of the opposite gender roles or there isn't a difference in any aspect.

 

[Mort Divine]

Neat attempt to redefine the parameters. Money is (although somewhat decoupled in the global scale due to the Monopoly nature of it) the measure of your time and effort. Without out it, you are working for free, or more specifically, as a slave. So the state of Massachusetts has forced it's slaves to pay for a 3rd bathroom in schools so that people with 0 anatomical difference have identical places to shit and piss, thus providing more ammo for the vicious little kidlets. It fails on all levels. If they had simply issued a statement that all bathrooms are open to whoever wants to use them, they could have saved money and done more for "letting people live their lives".

I think there is something to be said with keeping people from freaking out over something like this if at all possible. There was already outrage enough over the college that re-admitted a transgendered (pre-op) woman into a dressing room that was being used by younger girls.

People are going to make a fuss over this regardless, and kids are going to be assholes so the solution here makes sense

Allow the transgendered students a place they can change and take care of their business if they wish to use it so they can be uninterrupted by jeering students, and if the kids decide to be assholes about it then they can be met with a heavy punishment.

Edit: Let's reverse this: What if a concerned conservative parents group had demanded a separate bathroom to segregate the transgenders? You'd be flipping your lid.

Of course, because there is a little difference between outright fucking discrimination and this.

Thank you for proving my previous point. Trans gender is not some new or different gender, it's the wish to be/feeling of being "the other". Which merely reinforces my initial point that transgenderism reinforces binary gender roles. It has to. The transgender person does not feel like their anatomy matches their feeling, so they attempt to switch over, either anatomically and/or in appearance/mannerisms. The appearance and mannerisms must be a parody of the opposite gender roles or there isn't a difference in any aspect.

No, it isn't a new or different gender. It is someone who was born in a body that is a mismatch with their gender identity. They simply ARE that gender.

No, it does NOT have to enforce gender roles. Gender roles are things society says that a person of said gender must or usually will do. There are PLENTY of women who want nothing to do with the traditional idea of 'being a woman' and yet they don't identify as men. There is no reason to expect a transgendered woman to subscribe to the 'house wife, nice, quiet, subservient' role that is pushed on ciswomen if even those ciswomen reject it in large numbers DESPITE not identifying as men...

Absurd.

and for the record NO ONE WANTS to feel as if they are one of 'the others.'

 

[Dak]

Of course, because there is a little difference between outright fucking discrimination and this.

Oh really? I don't see a difference:

Official Statement: I think there is something to be said with keeping people from freaking out over something like this if at all possible. There was already outrage enough over the college that re-admitted a transgendered (pre-op) woman into a dressing room that was being used by younger girls.

People are going to make a fuss over this regardless, and kids are going to be assholes so the solution here makes sense

Allow the transgendered students a place they can change and take care of their business if they wish to use it so they can be uninterrupted by jeering students, and if the kids decide to be assholes about it then they can be met with a heavy punishment.

Obviously "asshole" wouldn't be in there, but you get the idea.

No, it isn't a new or different gender. It is someone who was born in a body that is a mismatch with their gender identity. They simply ARE that gender.

No, it does NOT have to enforce gender roles. Gender roles are things society says that a person of said gender must or usually will do. There are PLENTY of women who want nothing to do with the traditional idea of 'being a woman' and yet they don't identify as men. There is no reason to expect a transgendered woman to subscribe to the 'house wife, nice, quiet, subservient' role that is pushed on ciswomen if even those ciswomen reject it in large numbers DESPITE not identifying as men...

Absurd.

There's still limited set of gender roles, and they are still relatively binary. I'm not talking specifically about mimicking June Cleaver.

and for the record NO ONE WANTS to feel as if they are one of 'the others.'

That's not what I said.

 

[Mort Divine]

Sure, society says there are only so many roles because society is comfortable with only so many of the identities that exist.

Gender is NOT a binary thing.

People can be a man, a woman, agender, androgynous, neutrois, etc.

 

[Dak]

Sure, society says there are only so many roles because society is comfortable with only so many of the identities that exist.

Gender is NOT a binary thing.

People can be a man, a woman, agender, androgynous, neutrois, etc.

Androgyny (no need to say androgyny in 3 different ways) might be the closest thing to getting outside of traditional genderism. What I said about transgenderism stands. It's hardly groundbreaking to point out that in the process of forming, your brain and gonads got mixed up and you need to reconnect. It's not societies fault though (or the individuals in society), so don't come asking society for restitution. Or to make you a personal bathroom for the hell of it.

 

[Mort Divine]

Agender is someone who feels a lack of gender attributes but isn't bothered by their primary sexual characteristics, androgyny is obviously the possession of both male and female gender characteristics, while neutrosis is a form of agender where the person desires to not have biological characteristics of their sex. I didn't list androgyny three times :|

And again you only view it in this sense because that is how this society works - western society is largely binary

for example the Bugis of Indonesia have FIVE genders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society

EDIT:

i guess you feel that 'special' classes shouldn't be available, either, rite? cause it's not the publics fault that people are born with learning disabilities. why should they pay taxes that goes towards an education system that spends money on something like that

 

[Dak]

Agender is someone who feels a lack of gender attributes but isn't bothered by their primary sexual characteristics, androgyny is obviously the possession of both male and female gender characteristics, while neutrosis is a form of agender where the person desires to not have biological characteristics of their sex. I didn't list androgyny three times :|

I know what they are. I see it as [unnecessary] hyperspecification.

And again you only view it in this sense because that is how this society works - western society is largely binary

for example the Bugis of Indonesia have FIVE genders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society

I count 3: they have the two "standard" binary, with respective transgenders, and they have an androgynous voodoo person. Sort of like the Catholic clergy. lolz.

i guess you feel that 'special' classes shouldn't be available, either, rite? cause it's not the publics fault that people are born with learning disabilities. why should they pay taxes that goes towards an education system that spends money on something like that

Nothing wrong with availability itself. Have a bazillion different bathrooms and classes on all sorts of things. It's how those things are created. Kinda like there's nothing wrong with physically picking cotton, but potentially in the conditions in which you found yourself picking it.


BTW I'm going to be upfront and state that I think the whole thing is absurd, and yet I believe people have the right (on their own dime). In fact, in a show of solidarity, I now declare myself agender.

 

[Einherjar86]

I count 3 they have the two "standard" binary, with respective transgenders, and they have an androgynous voodoo person.

Are you saying a whole society counted wrong?

 

[Dak]

Are you saying a whole society counted wrong?

They can count it however they want, just like I can, right? It's all subjective/fabricated. Like Genderism. Which I have now transcended.

 

[Einherjar86]

Just because people count it differently doesn't mean it's fabricated...

 

[Dak]

Just because people count it differently doesn't mean it's fabricated...

I thought you were a relativist?

 

[Mort Divine]

I don't think a mocking display of solidarity is any way to display that you are being earnest in anything but being an ass.

 

[Dak]

I don't think a mocking display of solidarity is any way to display that you are being earnest in anything but being an ass.

Who gets to determine what's a mock and what's real? Couldn't I very easily accuse all agenders of merely mocking each other/everyone else(mocking society)? You need to think about these things more carefully? What says I'm not agender?

 

[Mort Divine]

I was basing it off the tone I perceived from your post based on your general posting style when it comes to dealing with people you disagree with.

If you actually are agender I apologize, but I don't think it is unreasonable for me to doubt your sincerity.

 

[Dak]

I was basing it off the tone I perceived from your post based on your general posting style when it comes to dealing with people you disagree with.

If you actually are agender I apologize, but I don't think it is unreasonable for me to doubt your sincerity.

What does tone have to do with gender or lack thereof? There's absolutely no way to tell whether I'm serious or not, even if you were around me, in person, 24/7. It's a personally subjective thing. I decide.

Going back to the articles you posted: My only real problem was with the aspect of tax dollars, and the segregation double standard, since not only is it hypocritical it will in fact create a worse bullying atmosphere.

 

[Mort Divine]

Because it isn't something you can just 'decide' to be. You don't choose your gender identity anymore than you choose your sexual orientation.

You and I obviously have different views on what the government should and shouldn't be doing with tax money, so I suppose a disagreement is natural there and simply stepping back from that is the best that'll happen here.