Debunking Creationism

[Tribal]

This is an interesting topic, but sadly I can't completely agree with either side. Both sides have great minds working for them as well as some idiots. I see them trying to beat eachother to gain the support of the majority to turn theory to fact without proof. I think the minds involved would be better used to solve some real problems that plauge us all, like how to extract the genes that create boy bands and bitter beer . To each his/her own. If people want to believe in magical ponies, smurfs, Buddha, God, or themselves to be a god then let them. The only thing that gets me is people looking down or insulting others for thier beliefs.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Originally posted by Wax Poetic
It has been a constant theme in our history where just when we think we have the world all figured out someone comes along like Copernicus or Galileo and suddenly our cosy little universe where everything was explained is shattered and we are left looking at naked infinity again scrabbling for answers.

And, of course, individuals like Galileo were persecuted by the church for it, one of the best examples of christianity's ongoing quest to eliminate all that may somehow hinder the willingness of the populous to blindly follow/believe what's written in the book.

I can certainly follow GZ/X/Lina's thoughts/agreeances that the Evolution/Creationism discussion seemingly never changes, and neither do the opinions of those who go into them. However, I, for one, consider myself on an unending search for knowledge, and enjoy thinking about stuff. If no Christian happens to come across this thread and leave as an Darwinist, it won't impact upon the outcome of my day.

Religion is the only reason the "notion" of evolution remains in any kind of question in the mind of any educated individual. Even if the theory as outlined today isn't 100% accurate (and it surely isn't) then it's still by far the closest concept we've ascertained from the available evidence. I'm surprised creationists don't suggest that scientists are making up test results in order to perpetuate some "Evolutionist Conspiracy" conducted by the scientists of the world. They seem to have a penchant for outlandish stories, after all. What they seem to fail to accept is that evolution isn't what we see as an "answer" with which to destroy any possibility of fact in their 2000-year-obsolete explanations of existence, it's an ongoing process to actually understand rather than simply accept. Even if we never find exactly the "actual answer" as to how life got here, we still have to look - without searching and trying and reaching, it's hard for our species to continue to EVOLVE. Just because you like being told how things are rather than figuring out for yourself, please don't discredit the work of those without the wool pulled across their eyes. (Oh, and don't forget - wool does come from sheep and would be commonly in the possession of shepherds...)

 

[Russell]

Originally posted by Wax Poetic
"It has been a constant theme in our history where just when we think we have the world all figured out someone comes along like Copernicus or Galileo and suddenly our cosy little universe where everything was explained is shattered and we are left looking at naked infinity again scrabbling for answers"
But how much evidence did the believers of a geocentric universe have? I think very little. All Galileo did was something that should have been done a long time ago with a very obvious experiment, his opposers also had little evidence.
Satori, if I remember right the current theory is, we had a nascent atmosphere of N, C, H and CO2 and a few other chemicals like sulphur and ammonia, then lightening struck, enabling them to form amino acids. This happened quite a bit and it followed that they turned it a sort of primordial goo and then in2 simple bacteria. That was how I understood it neway.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by godisanathiest
. All Galileo did was something that should have been done a long time ago with a very obvious experiment, his opposers also had little evidence.

Yes of course, but the point was how mythology seeks to crush anything that stands in its way, at least, such has been the case throughout history. Humans are highly socialized primates who exist in great numbers with the need for social hierarchy to get things to flow smoothly (just like apes, parrots, lions, etc). Those who sit on the top of this hierarchy (religion/gov't) are typically greedy fuckers who wish to dominate their fellow humans (just as in nature and history, no surprise there). Therefore, the potential for dishonesty and corrupt practices at the upper reaches of the social hierarchy is pretty significant, and I think, the norm.

If someone tells you something and it's to that person's advantage that you believe it, chances are you are being exploited. Let's just be thankful great men like Galileo existed to show us the inherent corruption of religion/gov't, otherwise, we might never know and be just as foolishly blinded/exploited by mythological rhetoric as those who came before us and that would be a real shame.

Religion wasn't devised to help humans, it was devised to control them from the inside out, and it has been doing a great job of doing that ever since.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by godisanathiest
Satori, if I remember right the current theory is, we had a nascent atmosphere of N, C, H and CO2 and a few other chemicals like sulphur and ammonia, then lightening struck, enabling them to form amino acids. This happened quite a bit and it followed that they turned it a sort of primordial goo and then in2 simple bacteria. That was how I understood it neway.

I don't remember the exact details but I'm sure you are right. Given the size and age of the earth, it's not so much a question of IF life will evolve, it's more a question of WHEN.

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
I'm surprised creationists don't suggest that scientists are making up test results in order to perpetuate some "Evolutionist Conspiracy" conducted by the scientists of the world. They seem to have a penchant for outlandish stories, after all. What they seem to fail to accept is that evolution isn't what we see as an "answer" with which to destroy any possibility of fact in their 2000-year-obsolete explanations of existence, it's an ongoing process to actually understand rather than simply accept.

heheh.

Sometimes I watch crossroads television (CTS) and they have tonnes of whacky religious/money programming. Anyway, on several different ocassions I've heard some money hungry loser suggest that what scientists say is shit cuz satan is working through them to mislead mankind. Funny stuff. So the "evolutionist conspiracy" (perputrated by lucifer himself) is a reality, sadly.

There is also a society in the bible belt in the US called the Flat Earth Society. It's a non-profit christian organization which seeks to dispell the myth that the world is spherical. After all, the bible says it is flat (apparently) and so it must be so. This society feels that all the data we have, pics from orbit and such are in fact dramatic hoaxes intended to mislead the public into satan's waiting grip. Idiocy of this severity makes the "evolutionist conspiracy" crap seem almost worthy of consideration, hehe.

Satori

 

[General Zod]

Luke-

I was actually referring to a theory called either "micro-evolution"or "micro-creation" (I forget which). The theory roughly states that God created the basic building blocks, and put evolution into motion.

This isn't a theory that I personally subscribe to, it's just an alternative. And as you correctly stated, it's only one of a number of alternatives.

GZ

"Don't set your mind to one side" - Warrel Dane, Evolution 169

 

[Russell]

I'm sticking to what I said earlier on this one. I don't think religion was invented to control, even if it became that, I think it was invented to explain the unknown. Also to justify life - i think many people don't want to think when you die you die and we have no greater meaning.

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by godisanathiest
I'm sticking to what I said earlier on this one. I don't think religion was invented to control, even if it became that, I think it was invented to explain the unknown. Also to justify life - i think many people don't want to think when you die you die and we have no greater meaning.

Of course it is both. Religion was gov't and gov'ts control, it's why they exist. Gov'ts also provide other services as well, but the prime objective to organize people in structured units for the good of everyone (especially the gov't itself).

It's a shame that humans are so horribly egocentric that they simply cannot accept that they are only humans and fundamentally the same as the majority of life on this planet. But I'm sure whales regard themselves as the center and reason for the universe too (evolution dictates self-importance, it's needed for survival).

I also think it's a shame the people need to delude themselves with notions of a greater purpose and such just to give their lives meaning. Life itself IS a meaning. Life is meaningful to itself. The point of life is survival and propogation, too bad so many people neglect this inherent beauty and forget their deepest organic roots and who they truly are: a human animal on this lovely little planet.

Personally, I find life much more beautiful, meaningful, spiritual, and majestic than any fear-imposed bullshit mythological blather.

Even if religion does do some good, it's far far outweighed by the bad, imo.

Satori

 

[Wax Poetic]

It is an interesting question isnt it? Is Christianity a good thing? I think it has its pros and cons, which I am going to come up with really quickly as i am about to go out. Feel free of course to add more. Pros first
1. Generally teaches good morals and ethics. Golden Rule, Respect Your Elders yada yada.
2. Gives people hope in a cold, unfeeling world.
3. Um, no hold on, thinking.....Fuck it, on to the cons

Cons (I am not as good at this as Satori, but then I dont have the whole renegade alter boy thing going for me)
1. Promotes slave morality not concerned with this life but the next.
2. I was going to put down causes wars but you know what, we like to fight and i think in most cases religion is an excuse. Bold statement I know, feel free to respond. I will say it is one more thing dividing mankind, our wars amd mass genocides are mainly started because someone is either different than us or has land and we want it.
3. The Catholic Church's stand on abortion and birth control is in my mind their largest fault. In this day and age where overpopulation is our biggest threat to the planet besides an asteroid, their stance is not only rediculous but dangerous. Not to mention the no sex before marriage clause. The human male's peak sexual time is when he is 18, and the church is trying to delay that for years. I would be interested in statistics on the percentage of Christian males who are still virgins when they finally are married.

 

[Demonspell]

Theistic evolution is just as ludicrous and nonscientific as creationism IMO...

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Demonspell
Theistic evolution is just as ludicrous and nonscientific as creationism IMO...

I agree, I find it much more plausible that a god intiated the big bang and allowed the universe to evolve naturally of it's own accord cuz it does look as if it did just that. This of course would mean that humans (and all life for that matter) happened quite by accident and that we aren't directly a concern to "god" the way that most religions assert humans are the center and reason for the entire universe (which would be a horrible waste of space and energy to the nth degree, hehe).

muwahah,

Satori

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Wax Poetic


Cons (I am not as good at this as Satori, but then I dont have the whole renegade alter boy thing going for me)

heheh, very witty

Ok, I'll go:

Con: It provokes fear, guilt, and suffering that gets more intense as the person gets closer to death.

Con: It teaches people how to negate their own logic in favour of what they are told by the church (which is as inherently corrupt as any other political institution). This leaves them kinda blank and easily exploited by their rulers, which is kinda sick. It's so easy to forget that religion spawned from a need for gov't and gov'ts in those days existed to collect taxes and dominate their fellow humans in a dictatorship fashion (which is why religion is personfied into a dictatorship style hierarchy, it's all those relatively stupid humans had and understood back then. Domocracy wasn't very popular back then, there were sheep and there were sheppards and brutal hand of god which justified their atrocities and exploitation against their fellow humans).

Con: It's really a huge pack of lies. I have a friend who learned first hand from a nun congregation that the higher ups in the church (namely the catholic church including the popes and bishops) know and understand that christianity is a myth perputrated by the wise to keep the masses in line. They really mean well (that's the assertion anyway, but I'm sure not all the rulers have the good of humanity at heart), which is probably the thing which makes this lying not quite so inherently evil, but I think lying to people, no matter what the justification, is simply wrong.

Con: It robs people of the personal freedom to simply be who they are by telling them who and what they should be before they've even had a chance to become fully self-actualized at around 7 or 8 years old. I feel that this is a violation of personal liberties at the most fundamental level (which, surprise surprise, I can explain if required).

2000 years ago the world was a very very fucked up place and people were much more freakish and deluded than the people that live today. They were pretty much savages. Just like the people that came before them, they created all sorts of myths to justify their politics and to brainwash people into fighting for their supremacy and to pay taxes. That was just the way things were, and in some parts of the world they still are (sadly). These people had some intelligence but they lacked much of the insight and experience that we enjoy today. We have learned from their mistakes. I only hope that our children learn from our mistakes as well and build societies based on personal freedom and compassion instead of fear and selfish desires.

I think people should be more concerned with their fellow humans than they are with themselves (guilt, salvation). I think society would be better and people would be happier and we wouldn't have as much need to mistreat/exploit each other, which is more the norm than the exception in this modern world.

superfreakin,

Satori

 

[Tribal]

2000 years ago the world was a very very fucked up place and people were much more freakish and deluded than the people that live today. They were pretty much savages.



I must say this I disagree with. I say we have become more savage, we are just use to the violence around us and only care for ourselves. Christian, satanist, atheist, new age, or whatever. We are still going down hill no matter how smart or technologicaly advanced we are.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Originally posted by Tribal
I must say this I disagree with. I say we have become more savage, we are just use to the violence around us and only care for ourselves. Christian, satanist, atheist, new age, or whatever. We are still going down hill no matter how smart or technologicaly advanced we are.

Well, I don't know about that. I think the notion of whether we are more or less savage than we were 2000 years ago varies on different levels in different scales. Although drive-by chariot arrowings, explosives capable of leveling cities, and lack of warnings on tobacco packages probably weren't present back then, I haven't gone down to the town square to throw rocks at any prisoners in a long time, can't remember the last public execution I watched, or been ruled by a religious dictator. (of course, if I lived somewhere in the third world... or Georgia...)

 

[Russell]

I think the main tennets of christianity are good, I mean we should treat other people with respect and kindness (tho we shouldn't need heaven as an incentive), and the ten commandments are common sense. I just think peple should use the bible, not as the word of god, but as a guide to life. People would be (and should be) a lot nicer to each other..

 

[Satori]

Originally posted by Tribal
I must say this I disagree with. I say we have become more savage, we are just use to the violence around us and only care for ourselves. Christian, satanist, atheist, new age, or whatever. We are still going down hill no matter how smart or technologicaly advanced we are.

Perhaps in some parts of the world people remain savages, but in north america and the more civilized parts of europe we are no longer torturing and crucifying people for kicks. We enjoy a standard of living and quality of life which those people never imagined. Life was hard/brutal, and so were the gov'ts/gods, so it's no wonder people behaved the way they did. If I had a hard shitty life of dispair, fear, and poverty, I'd probably be a savage too. You can take the meekest kitty-cat and throw it in a jungle and it will become a killer within a few days.

We have the same selfish desires and savage rage as the people who lived 2000 years ago, we just have less reason to act on them. People today are more like domestic kitty-cats than their jungle-bound counterparts. I don't know about you, but I haven't seen too many public floggings lately in my part of the world - something that was pretty routine not that long ago.

I think the idea that we are going downhill is a little pessimistic. I see a lot of good and compassion in a great many people and this gives me hope for humanity. We fuck up but we aren't perfect and more importantly we learn from our mistakes - even if it takes a few hundred or thousand years. Humans are smart fuckers.

Satori