Democracy lie

[Norsemaiden]

It is a well known saying that if voting changed anything, voting would be illegal. The best illustration of this fact in pracitice that I have found is the elections at the start of the 1990s in the former French colony of Algeria.

In 1989 the National People's Assembly revoked a ban on new political parties and in 1990 the FIS (Islamic Salvation Front) won 55% of the vote in local elections.

1991: The government announces parliamentary elections to be held in June 1991, and plans changes to the electoral system, imposing restrictions on campaigning in mosques. The FIS reacts by calling a general strike. Then a state of seige was declared, and the elections postponed. FIS leaders were arrested and jailed.

Dec 1991: In the first round of general elections, the FIS wins 188 seats outright and seems virtually certain to obtain an absolute majority in the second round.

The military takes over to prevent this.

Jan1992: President Chaladi (who was president before the aborted election) resigns under pressure from the military leadership. A 5 member Higher State Council is put in charge.

Street gatherings are banned, leading to violent clashes on 8,9 Feb between FIS supporters and security forces, which leads to a state of emergency being declared. FIS ordered to disband and all FIS controlled local and regional authorities are disolved.

2000: By this time, violence had claimed over 100,000 lives in Algeria over 8 years.

2005:Government commissioned report says security forces were responsible for the disappearance of more than 6000 citizens during the 1990s civil conflict.

(The above information is sourced from BBC news Timeline: Algeria).

The FIS and GIA (Armed Islamic Group) received support from various Islamic states, while the illegitamate Algerian government received support from the IMF (International Monetary Fund), France, the United States and other states. The very states which claim to support democracy and oversee "free and fair" elections in other states.

In the early 1990s, as the FIS supporters were turning increasingly towards becoming terrorists, they were infiltrated by the French. Pretending to be islamic fundamentalists, they used agent provocateur methods to stir up the militants and encourage extreme violence. Documentaries have described how the French Special Forces took part in cutting the throats of whole villages. This achieved its intended purpose of pushing the militants into a corner, discredited in the eyes of the population. The rebellion was destroyed as the paranoid Islamic fundamentalists turned on eachother until very few remained.

States regularly use infiltration to destabilise any political parties or other groups that they feel their power threatened by. A government will send infiltrators to destabilise parties within their own nation. Ideally an infiltrator will become a "false leader" and control the situation like that.

Here in the West, when we have general elections, each persons vote is supposed to be secret. However we only have the state's word that it is secret, because they can match each ballot to the castor of that ballot using references printed on it. They say this is needed to ensure no one votes twice. But you have to trust them on that.

In voting regarding various aspects of the European Union - whether a country wants to join or to accept the constitution, if the desired "yes" vote is not won the result is criticised. In these cases plans are made for another vote to take place - until the correct result is acheived.

The main political parties in every democratic nation are broadly similar, and offer the people no drastic alternatives. It is as if they were set up that way deliberately. The media backs up this system.

 

[Kenneth R.]

They were set up brilliantly by the founders of the idea of democracy. Politicians since their time have distorted what "democracy" constitutes, and as a result we have this. Choose A or A or A, or for variety, A.

 

[derek]

This is a quote from my undergrad Philosophy tutor, a certain Dr Albert Atkin:

"I genuinely feel that no one involved in mainstream politics represents my feelings on any key subject. The result is that I feel politically neutered and disenfranchised.

"What's worse is that I'm not a political extremist by any measure, which just goes to show how limited the range of views represented by the parties are.

"How can I exercise my democratic right to vote when there is no real choice about who to vote for? As such, I think it's best not to vote at all and instead be part of that statistic that suggests the political alienation that I know I feel.

"I wouldn't want any of the current parties thinking that they speak for me or the majority of fair-minded people I know.

Would you like a bit of Toblerone before you go?"


What I've just quoted is exactly how I feel on the subject. I have not voted for years, but I resent the implication by some folks that refusing to vote gives me no room to complain.

p.s...He wouldn't let me use the quote without the Toblerone ending - sorry!

 

[judas69]

Electronic voting is another interesting topic, especially when you consider how secure the process is.

But in general I agree ..and I haven't voted in many years myself.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Original Athenian democracy involved a daily vote by the citizens in a forum.
Not everyone could vote. The conditions were that you had to be male, property owning, free Greeks with hair that was not black (because this hair colour was not Hellenic). They voted daily on many issues. There were no parties, and the presiding judge was also elected daily.
Unfortunately this turned out to be a useless system with little getting achieved. It did not last long and was militarily crushed by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great.

Cromwell resurected democracy in Britain, but it failed and was replaced by a military dictatorship.

The kind of party democracy of the present day basically amounts to a 4 to 5 year dictatorship. Within the party the members are subordinate to their leader and the party (particularly the top members) have a personal secretive agenda. (This is a lot like Darth Sidious in Starwars - that kind of scheming).

Natural leadership would be like a wolf pack leader. The strongest, the Alpha male, is in charge. He is also the wisest and most experienced and leads the group to food and survival. They are his kin. In present day democracy, it is the smoothest talker and manipulator who takes control. He is not necessarily interested in group survival, truth or anything beneficial to those he rules over.

If a fair and effective form of democracy would be possible, an idea would be that we only vote for some sort of body to handle practicalities of the economy and generally running the country, but that all major issues are given a seperate vote which there is no manifesto, just a democratic decision on each seperate issue, presented in the form of "bullet points". (As a child I always assumed that must be what democracy entailed. It was a shock to discover what really happens).

 

[speed]

Original Athenian democracy involved a daily vote by the citizens in a forum.
Not everyone could vote. The conditions were that you had to be male, property owning, free Greeks with hair that was not black (because this hair colour was not Hellenic). They voted daily on many issues. There were no parties, and the presiding judge was also elected daily.
Unfortunately this turned out to be a useless system with little getting achieved. It did not last long and was militarily crushed by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great.

Cromwell resurected democracy in Britain, but it failed and was replaced by a military dictatorship.

The kind of party democracy of the present day basically amounts to a 4 to 5 year dictatorship. Within the party the members are subordinate to their leader and the party (particularly the top members) have a personal secretive agenda. (This is a lot like Darth Sidious in Starwars - that kind of scheming).

Natural leadership would be like a wolf pack leader. The strongest, the Alpha male, is in charge. He is also the wisest and most experienced and leads the group to food and survival. They are his kin. In present day democracy, it is the smoothest talker and manipulator who takes control. He is not necessarily interested in group survival, truth or anything beneficial to those he rules over.

If a fair and effective form of democracy would be possible, an idea would be that we only vote for some sort of body to handle practicalities of the economy and generally running the country, but that all major issues are given a seperate vote which there is no manifesto, just a democratic decision on each seperate issue, presented in the form of "bullet points". (As a child I always assumed that must be what democracy entailed. It was a shock to discover what really happens).

In regards to the Greek Democracy ideas you have so posted, a stoutly conservative author and professor by the name of Victor Davis Hanson, recently wrote a quite interesting book called A War Like no Other http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400060958/qid=1137682710/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2114944-0391163?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

After the horrific thirty year Peloppenessian War, Hanson theorizes that the Spartans and Athenians, as well as the other city states in greece, turned entirely democratic and grew very tired of war: many of the citizens that would have fought, refused, thus creating the power and military vacuum that easily allowed Philip to conquer all of them. Thus the lesson is, democracy and the reluctance to go to war in a time of plenty and democratic system, allowed these democratic states to be destroyed by an upstart barbaric Hellenized (possibly Greek--they argue about this quite a bit) tribe.

 

[The Winnipeg Warrior]

Electronic voting is another interesting topic, especially when you consider how secure the process is.

I agree. This may be one answer to getting more people to participate.....who would otherwise eliminate themselves from the electoral process.

Another option would be to adopt what Australia has done, that is to make voting mandatory.....accompanied with a $50 dollar fine for not participating.

As far as voting making a difference, I'll add this: Canada has a Federal election this Monday (23JAN06). I have already voted in advance. But no matter what the results are, one day under any administration in this country is far better than the alternative and living under a dictatorship or tyrant. Which is FAR from cry from what any of us will experience. And when 90% of the world cannot do what I just did this past Monday.....and that is cast a ballot.....I take that priviledge very seriously.

For anyone that uses the word, Dictator, think about what you just said. You don't realize how lucky you are if you live in a free nation. You can work, eat, have a home and own property, drive a car, raise a family and live a normal life in relative safety, have money in the bank and be able to invest, .....you're better off than 90% of the world. Be grateful. You only have what you have and live where you do because of pure luck. Nothing else. It could be alot worse.

I told my wife as we came out of the polling site....."I still get a thrill marking that X on the ballot. Even 20 years later when I voted for the very first time, I have never lost that pride." Because I know what it represents.

 

[derek]

I don't feel the need to participate in voting, I find it no longer means anything.

I DO realise we have many things 90% of the world does not have, but just because our system is more favourable than theirs does not make it right. I fail to see the logic in comparing western "democracy" with, for example, African dictatorships and arriving at the conclusion that we should have great pride in our system purely because it allows us a better standard of life.

 

[judas69]

I should mention that although electronic voting should be extremely secure, there are a ton of people coming out from behind the scenes saying these machines are anything but, and without a paper trail it makes tampering even more difficult to track.

I'm not necessarily one inclined to believe in conspiracies, but you have to wonder sometimes...

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

Another option would be to adopt what Australia has done, that is to make voting mandatory.....accompanied with a $50 dollar fine for not participating.

this won't work in America because majority rule = minority getting trampled and screwed
we have too many white supremisists too many homophobics to many atheist-hating-Christians...

"if voting in the USA became mandatory, the President would become the Pope"

 

[derek]

I should mention that although electronic voting should be extremely secure, there are a ton of people coming out from behind the scenes saying these machines are anything but, and without a paper trail it makes tampering even more difficult to track.

I'm not necessarily one inclined to believe in conspiracies, but you have to wonder sometimes...

www.gregpalast.com

He may be over-zealous, but he has some interesting research on his site about such issues.

 

[The Winnipeg Warrior]

I don't feel the need to participate in voting, I find it no longer means anything.

I DO realise we have many things 90% of the world does not have, but just because our system is more favourable than theirs does not make it right. I fail to see the logic in comparing western "democracy" with, for example, African dictatorships and arriving at the conclusion that we should have great pride in our system purely because it allows us a better standard of life.

.....it's not so much about pride in our political systems, but national pride in our country men who shed their blood over in Europe and around the world to protect and defend what we have this very day. If not for this brave act of our Veterans, both you and I and many people on this very website would be living in a very different world and saluting....."Heil Hitler".....or perhaps under the strains of another Dictator.

The fact that we can even debate this very subject electronically in this manner without fear of being labeled a traitor or heretic.....or even face long imprisonment.....I think that says someting right there. In most countries around the world.....what we're saying now would constitute a crime against the nation and would be reflected in some form of cruel and unusual punishment.

My profession has allowed me to see how the locals of these 'have-not nations' carry on day to day. So, that has given me a little different perspective to work with. And I've definitely toned down a lot.....hard perspective will give you that reality check. If for that reason alone, it has forced me to see the whole word as one, not in fragmented pieces. And to have been fortunate enough to have had a serving of humble pie like that.....I feel priviledged.

 

[derek]

.....it's not so much about pride in our political systems, but national pride in our country men who shed their blood over in Europe and around the world to protect and defend what we have this very day. If not for this brave act of our Veterans, both you and I and many people on this very website would be living in a very different world and saluting....."Heil Hitler".....or perhaps under the strains of another Dictator.

The fact that we can even debate this very subject electronically in this manner without fear of being labeled a traitor or heretic.....or even face long imprisonment.....I think that says someting right there. In most countries around the world.....what we're saying now would constitute a crime against the nation and would be reflected in some form of cruel and unusual punishment.

My profession has allowed me to see how the locals of these 'have-not nations' carry on day to day. So, that has given me a little different perspective to work with. And I've definitely toned down a lot.....hard perspective will give you that reality check. If for that reason alone, it has forced me to see the whole word as one, not in fragmented pieces. And to have been fortunate enough to have had a serving of humble pie like that.....I feel priviledged.

I am in no way trying to sound condescending here, but I understand exactly where you are coming from. My simple argument is that, while I totally appreciate the lives given so we could escape the Nazi jackboot, that does not mean the system they tried to protect actually exists. I think the idea those men died for was a noble one, and one i still believe in. I just don't see why I need to vote inorder to respect these men.

I have also spent much time in countries that are hugely less fortunate than us and count myself has having some perspective to the world. That being said, however, I still do not wish to participate in my countries "democratic" process.

 

[tr_ofdallas]

My simple argument is that, while I totally appreciate the lives given so we could escape the Nazi jackboot, that does not mean the system they tried to protect actually exists.

the "system" that they thought they were protecting was, and will forever be, a fantasy. It didn't really exist then, it sure as hell doesn't exist now, and the "radical changes" that happened in the 60's was really just America realizing that the way things were going in the 50's wasn't really working

 

[derek]

Regardless...Had many of these young men not sacrificed themselves, we may be under the Nazi jackboot at this very moment.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Who can bring themselves to reluctantly admit that Hitler's appearing at the time that he did crucially saved much of Europe from becoming part of the soviet union? Because of the WWII the Russians didn't manage to go as far as they intended. Also, the British soldiers were told they would come back to a land fit for heroes at the end of the war. In fact they were greatly disappointed. Old men who fought in the war often say they are disgusted with how society has gone and that they wouldn't have felt like fighting at all if they knew that the future would be like this.

Winnepeg warrior says we should be grateful for the freedom we have, but there is less freedom than most people realise and all freedoms are under threat as we move towards a police state. They will try to justify restrictive laws under the guise of protecting our freedom. Dictatorship here takes a different form from African dictatorships because the people here are different and tend to stand up against tyrants rather than envying them.

 

[speed]

Regardless...Had many of these young men not sacrificed themselves, we may be under the Nazi jackboot at this very moment.

One of the most interesting facts about WWII, is after the war, almost all the former Nazi's, and Italian Fascists were not only not prosecuted or stripped of their wealth, but they were left in positions of power. The scientists and intelligence officers were employed to fight the communists. Nowhere is this more evident than in Italy, were all the rich and powerful fascists remained in power, but no longer called themselves fascists.

 

[derek]

One of the most interesting facts about WWII, is after the war, almost all the former Nazi's, and Italian Fascists were not only not prosecuted or stripped of their wealth, but they were left in positions of power. The scientists and intelligence officers were employed to fight the communists. Nowhere is this more evident than in Italy, were all the rich and powerful fascists remained in power, but no longer called themselves fascists.

Things are never as black and white and mainstream history books would have us believe then, i guess.

 

[LORD_RED_DRAGON]

the "system" that they thought they were protecting was, and will forever be, a fantasy. It didn't really exist then, it sure as hell doesn't exist now, and the "radical changes" that happened in the 60's was really just America realizing that the way things were going in the 50's wasn't really working

finally somebody (other than Norsemaiden) willing to admit that the USA is not really the glorious "land of oppertunity" that all of Mexico seems to think it is

 

[Kenneth R.]

finally somebody (other than Norsemaiden) willing to admit that the USA is not really the glorious "land of oppertunity" that all of Mexico seems to think it is

I've been condemning it for as long as I posted here

I am actually seriously considering transferring my citizenship to a European country. Every day it seems there is yet another reason to hate US politics.