Democracy lie

[derek]

I've been condemning it for as long as I posted here

I am actually seriously considering transferring my citizenship to a European country. Every day it seems there is yet another reason to hate US politics.

I wouldnt make it Britain. It is so dreary and boring here, that i would recommend the continent

 

[speed]

I wouldnt make it Britain. It is so dreary and boring here, that i would recommend the continent

I wouldnt mind living in an Umbrian hill town, or a Greek Isle, or in the South of Spain or France, or in Oslo or Copenhagen. Send me money! I am going to have to start a Help Speed live in a nicer place thread. Hell, I'd even be open to Hawaii or San Diego if I had to. Your donations matter here people.

By the way, the little English towns are quite charming; never been to Scotland, but I hear it is quite beautiful. Its no Cincinnati I'm sure.

 

[tr_ofdallas]

finally somebody (other than Norsemaiden) willing to admit that the USA is not really the glorious "land of oppertunity" that all of Mexico seems to think it is

yeah, honey, that was kinda my point

 

[derek]

I wouldnt mind living in an Umbrian hill town, or a Greek Isle, or in the South of Spain or France, or in Oslo or Copenhagen. Send me money! I am going to have to start a Help Speed live in a nicer place thread. Hell, I'd even be open to Hawaii or San Diego if I had to. Your donations matter here people.

By the way, the little English towns are quite charming; never been to Scotland, but I hear it is quite beautiful. Its no Cincinnati I'm sure.

Scotland is quite beautiful, much of Ireland too, for that matter. Oslo is a wonderful place, but so freakishly expensive (at last count £7.80 for a pint of ale). Italy is my personal choice, venice and Rome

 

[speed]

yeah, honey, that was kinda my point

Lord Red Dragon, do you have multiple personalities, or do you generally have conversations with yourself?

 

[tr_ofdallas]

Lord Red Dragon, do you have multiple personalities, or do you generally have conversations with yourself?

he's probably not going to answer that because it's so totally a trick question

 

[derek]

so he does have conversations with himself?

 

[speed]

he's probably not going to answer that because it's so totally a trick question

Who is the woman in the relationship?

 

[byrne]

"I genuinely feel that no one involved in mainstream politics represents my feelings on any key subject. The result is that I feel politically neutered and disenfranchised.

"What's worse is that I'm not a political extremist by any measure, which just goes to show how limited the range of views represented by the parties are.

"How can I exercise my democratic right to vote when there is no real choice about who to vote for? As such, I think it's best not to vote at all and instead be part of that statistic that suggests the political alienation that I know I feel.

"I wouldn't want any of the current parties thinking that they speak for me or the majority of fair-minded people I know.

By not voting you don't have a say at all. What is achieved by being completely passive? Regardless of whether you vote for political party A or B, someone will get to power. You may as well have your say in who is the weaker of the two.

The other side of this very vapid comment is the notion of political parties not aligning with a persons "feelings" on any particular subject. If not anything else, surely one party would be more appealing than another as far as sound economic management goes. Economic management is an essential part of any western society. I think many people take this government function for granted. EVERYTHING falls into disarray if an economy is not effectively guided.

Also, it is inferred (and this seems to be quite regular on this forum) that we are always striving for "perfection". Why is best practice not good enough? Sure it can be bettered, but this is done in conjunction with the dynamics of society and shifting values. Perfection will never occur, EVER. People are too different and perfection requires logic, synchronisation, intelligence and so forth. That won't happen as long as people are different. I suggest you make do with what is on offer, and rather than passively (and pointlessly) protesting the current system, have a say. Either do that, or come up with something functionally better.

 

[derek]

By not voting you don't have a say at all. What is achieved by being completely passive? Regardless of whether you vote for political party A or B, someone will get to power. You may as well have your say in who is the weaker of the two.

The other side of this very vapid comment is the notion of political parties not aligning with a persons "feelings" on any particular subject. If not anything else, surely one party would be more appealing than another as far as sound economic management goes. Economic management is an essential part of any western society. I think many people take this government function for granted. EVERYTHING falls into disarray if an economy is not effectively guided.

Also, it is inferred (and this seems to be quite regular on this forum) that we are always striving for "perfection". Why is best practice not good enough? Sure it can be bettered, but this is done in conjunction with the dynamics of society and shifting values. Perfection will never occur, EVER. People are too different and perfection requires logic, synchronisation, intelligence and so forth. That won't happen as long as people are different. I suggest you make do with what is on offer, and rather than passively (and pointlessly) protesting the current system, have a say. Either do that, or come up with something functionally better.

My response is summed up in the original thing you quoted from me, that outlines exactly why I do not vote. I never expect perfection, but I see no need to exercise my right to vote purely because it is there. No party appeals to me and as I said before hand, I'd rather not vote and signify the political alienation I feel than vote for the best of a bad bunch.

The very fact that I post here about such things shows I am far from passive on the subject and I resent the implication that I pointlessly protest the current system. I refuse to give my consent for any party I can vote for to rule my country because I find them all lacking in different ways - My vote, essentially, is not to vote and signify that I feel the smattering of parties I can vote for represent nothing about me or what I stand for.

 

[judas69]

Don't look at it as if you're not voting, look at it as though you're choosing to place a vote for all parties.

I'll be voting for all parties once again this month ..

 

[derek]

I have been coerced into voting before, and I voted Green. I don't agree with most of their polices, but I reckoned a few Green MP's could bite into a labour majority a teeny bit and maybe influence some environmental decisions.

But for the last few elections, I have totally avoided voting and to my mind that was my lonely, pathetic voice of alienation and desent saying: I'm not happy, you all disgust me.

I do actively participate in political debates, campaign for a number of different organisations (no hippy ones, mind ) so I don't count myself as apathetic nor passive, just annoyed to the point where I refuse to half-arsed vote for the best of a bad bunch.

 

[byrne]

Do you really think the collective opinions of any political system will truly represent how everyone feels about every topical issue? No. Not even possible, as I outlined above.

But it seems you have missed my point entirely. Surely you can align some of your political ideals/beliefs with what a party wants to do. The party which you can align most of your beliefs with is then the one you vote for. Pretty simple.

Voting is about ensuring there is a balance of the most competent people being allowed to run the country. Aligning your personal beliefs and needs, should run a very distant second to this primary concern. Thinking of it any other way, is purely selfish. This is why the "green" vote can only ever be a tiny minority. I agree we need to have an extremist organisation to balance out and make aware of the needs of the country, but if they every became a significant force, or even a majoirty, the country would fall apart.

The only voting I feel is pointless, is where you are voting at a level of government, which is both completely incompetent and totally powerless.

 

[derek]

Do you really think the collective opinions of any political system will truly represent how everyone feels about every topical issue? No. Not even possible, as I outlined above.

But it seems you have missed my point entirely. Surely you can align some of your political ideals/beliefs with what a party wants to do. The party which you can align most of your beliefs with is then the one you vote for. Pretty simple.

Voting is about ensuring there is a balance of the most competent people being allowed to run the country. Aligning your personal beliefs and needs, should run a very distant second to this primary concern. Thinking of it any other way, is purely selfish. This is why the "green" vote can only ever be a tiny minority. I agree we need to have an extremist organisation to balance out and make aware of the needs of the country, but if they every became a significant force, or even a majoirty, the country would fall apart.

The only voting I feel is pointless, is where you are voting at a level of government, which is both completely incompetent and totally powerless.

I feel we must agree to disagree on this topic. We are only going to enter a circular argument where you feel I should vote and I maintain I should not.

I do appreciate your stance, and I see the purpose behind it, but I just cannot bring myself to vote.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Elected politicians are not required to have any qualifications for the jobs they take in parliament. The economy is largely run by the banks and the civil servants (in the UK) and some similar deligation of tasks in the US and other countries.
The politicians are supposed to be the servants of the people. The situation is now that the people do the bidding of the politicians. The State is all powerful - and that is the very definition of fascism.
We are run by a bunch of gangsters who do not have the national interest at heart and who are self-serving and corrupt.
It is not too extreme to say that the entire future of life on Earth looks to be doomed, not to mention the devastation of the environment. (It is the biggest mass extinction of species since the demise of the dinosaurs). This is because of the environmental rape commited by the short-sighted materialistic policies of every government or regime anywhere in the world,
with their cult of the Golden Calf.

 

[judas69]

Can you explain what you mean a little bit more about "materialistic polities"?

 

[Norsemaiden]

Can you explain what you mean a little bit more about "materialistic polities"?

What I mean by materialistic policies is the unsustainable consumerism that requires an over production of products and constant accumulation of useless comodities. There is a lot of waste and pollution as a result of consumerism and toxic industries. There is far too little recycling. Our economies are designed to rely on this spending of money. The taxes creamed off from this consumer process are used for further destructive purposes like making nuclear weapons, fighting futile wars and feeding the third world population explosion.
There is an obsession with higher standards of living, which are fast being copied by countries like India and China, where they all want two cars per family, big fridges, cheap flights, etc.
The Earth cannot cope with this.

 

[judas69]

I'm not convinced that we (in the form of industry and vehicle pollution) are the sole cause of "global warming". I'm also not convinced it's the governments fault as much as it is human nature, industry and capitalism run a muck. Otherwise, you're absolutely right.

We are pretty reckless in our approach to life and living, and unlike the philosophies of the east, which center more around surpressing ones ego, we work hard to build ourselves up to incredible heights with unrealistic expectations.

Our "wants" are slowly being replaced with "needs" ..and like any Philosophy 101 student knows, if you always want what you don't have, you'll never be happy. It's no wonder people and the western world today in general are increasingly frustrated, anxious, depressed, overweight and in general .. unhealthy, this despite enjoying a quality of life never imagined.

 

[Norsemaiden]

I'm not convinced that we (in the form of industry and vehicle pollution) are the sole cause of "global warming". I'm also not convinced it's the governments fault as much as it is human nature, industry and capitalism run a muck. Otherwise, you're absolutely right.

We are pretty reckless in our approach to life and living, and unlike the philosophies of the east, which center more around surpressing ones ego, we work hard to build ourselves up to incredible heights with unrealistic expectations.

Our "wants" are slowly being replaced with "needs" ..and like any Philosophy 101 student knows, if you always want what you don't have, you'll never be happy. It's no wonder people and the western world today in general are increasingly frustrated, anxious, depressed, overweight and in general .. unhealthy, this despite enjoying a quality of life never imagined.

It is human nature, you're right, that most people are greedy and don't seem to care about the mess they're causing for future generations. That is why people don't feel strongly enough about objecting to the way we are governed. On the whole people get the rulers they deserve (as a population), but some of us are different and object to the status quo. We can only hope that enough people could start to see it that way and then things could improve. Some hope!
Voting for these politicians is perpetuating the system and makes everyone feel as though there must be a lot of support for the party being voted for. Which keeps people in their place, feeling impotent.

 

[derek]

It is human nature, you're right, that most people are greedy and don't seem to care about the mess they're causing for future generations. That is why people don't feel strongly enough about objecting to the way we are governed. On the whole people get the rulers they deserve (as a population), but some of us are different and object to the status quo. We can only hope that enough people could start to see it that way and then things could improve. Some hope!
Voting for these politicians is perpetuating the system and makes everyone feel as though there must be a lot of support for the party being voted for. Which keeps people in their place, feeling impotent.

My sentiments exactly! The way I see it is; I'd rather refuse to vote and signify my growing alienation, while searching for better alternatives and campaigning for that something than simply voting in the mean-time because "its the best we got".