You know, after almost every school massacre, I find myself a couple of days into the coverage realizing that the only sympathetic figure in the whole fucking mess is the shooter. Two days after his Blacksburg rampage, the picture that is emerging of Seung Cho is that of a troubled young man, abandoned by society and abused by his fellows. The picture that emerges of the victims is that of cowards huddling in fear. Not one person in the entire building thought to take advantage of their numbers and rush Cho (a situation that has ended many such events before the death tolls could mount to catastrophic proportions). The 'victims' behaved like craven dogs, and I'm supposed to feel sorry because they were shot down like dogs? I don't think so. If they'd been worthy of life, they'd have at least tried to do something to stop the killer. But they didn't, and they weren't. The contrast between the worthless pansies at VA Tech and, say, the heroes who saved hundreds and possibly thousands of other lives by deliberately sacrificing themselves on United Flight 93 is striking. If the best my generation can do is hide under desks and wait for some skinny Asian kid to methodically execute them, then this nation is doomed. We are a broken race of broken people: if this is our measure, then I hope the terrorists win, because we simply do not deserve to continue to exist as a people. Let the mantle pass to some other, more worthy people, because we are not fit to bear it.
Don't Mourn The Dead In Blacksburg
- Thread starter Scourge of God
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Norsemaiden
barbarian
Yes, I just made a post at the end of the thread on the Fall of the American Empire about this.
Because of the fact I blame the lack of a "hero" on the effects of diverstity
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/c4ac4a74-570f-11db-9110-0000779e2340.html
it occured to me earlier today that this makes it very unlikely that any heroes were on Flight 93, so I am skeptical in the extreme that any hyjackers were challenged on that flight.
Mind you, I do think it likely I would have tackled the gunman - but I think you have to be mentally prepared for these things. Most people flee from the harsh facts of reality and pretend nothing bad will ever happen.
Another thing seems to be that there are people who think they're tough and will speak aggressively or square up to another person, but if that other person just hits them straight off, without hesitation, the troublemaker turns out to be a push-over. But afterwards, the one who hit the idiot had better watch their back.
I have always wondered about those situations in history where people have supposedly lined up passively to be shot or gassed or whatever. Why didn't they run around and cause confusion, try to escape or attack anyone? If they had nothing to lose, why not do that?
Justin S.
Member
This seems quite hasty- It's not a mark of cowardice to not be mentally prepared for someone to walk into your 9am French class and put a round into your teachers head. One could not function, let alone study a language if they were on guard for such things.
I do agree, to a point, that after a certain amount of time, one's thoughts should be signalling something more than "cower" (after one has adjusted to the shock). Psychoanalysis has had much to say about the relationship of shock and trauma. Certainly, our current artificially sheltered existence causes the "shock" to be incapacitating rather than momentary, hence the body count. I agree that this is a worrying trend. I don't agree that everyone involved, especially those killed immediately, are cowards, and that we should sympathize more with the shooter, who is an ideological idiot (his writings make this very clear). I see far less "internal logic" to sympathize with here than, say, Columbine.
I do agree, to a point, that after a certain amount of time, one's thoughts should be signalling something more than "cower" (after one has adjusted to the shock). Psychoanalysis has had much to say about the relationship of shock and trauma. Certainly, our current artificially sheltered existence causes the "shock" to be incapacitating rather than momentary, hence the body count. I agree that this is a worrying trend. I don't agree that everyone involved, especially those killed immediately, are cowards, and that we should sympathize more with the shooter, who is an ideological idiot (his writings make this very clear). I see far less "internal logic" to sympathize with here than, say, Columbine.
It is disquieting that at least some of the people would actually line up as told, and while I am sure Scourge of God would have donned his KFC bucket and struck down each bullet with those burly muttonchops, I have to ask, really, what do you expect? These are (were) some well-to-do math students.
While still at distance from the approaching carnage some students wisely bailed while they could, others played dead and some organized to barricade the door on one classroom.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20070418_Refusing_to_cower__he_saved_lives.html
There was also a 75 year old Jewish Prof. who apparently blocked the door to his classroom and died shielding the rest of the students.
People seeking more info behind the economics, implications and "culture of cruelty" behind many such attacks in the USA shuld definitely check out Going Postal by Mark Ames.
Excerpt here: http://www.exile.ru/2005-November-04/going_postal.html
While still at distance from the approaching carnage some students wisely bailed while they could, others played dead and some organized to barricade the door on one classroom.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20070418_Refusing_to_cower__he_saved_lives.html
There was also a 75 year old Jewish Prof. who apparently blocked the door to his classroom and died shielding the rest of the students.
People seeking more info behind the economics, implications and "culture of cruelty" behind many such attacks in the USA shuld definitely check out Going Postal by Mark Ames.
Excerpt here: http://www.exile.ru/2005-November-04/going_postal.html
We're not talking about instant reactions. He methodically killed people - for the most part in a single classroom - over the course of nearly 15 minutes. There was plenty of time for a mental adjustment (then again, most undergrads don't have much in the mental department anyway, so I'm probably expecting too much). Again, I contrast this with United Flight 93, where as soon as the passengers heard from loved ones that other planes had hit the Towers, they left the survival mentality behind almost instantly and made a move that ultimately may have saved thousands of lives. The most organized action any of the students achieved was to barricade the door to a classroom Cho never even moved towards.
I dunno. We've both seen enough of what colleges are like to know that the vast majority of students are children of affluence and ease, and we both know how they treat their lesser fellows who don't share the same life status advantages. Everything about this killing spree speaks of methodical planning - it's not an act of random murder (anymore than Columbine was - we were told for years that the killers randomly shot everyone they crossed paths with, but, in fact, they targeted specific types of people: jocks and the Young Life crowd). I suspect that he chose his victims carefully, and that most who died simjply got what was coming to them.
In other news, I am heartened to learn that the Holocaust Survivor(tm) ain't a survivor anymore. LOLZ!!!!
JoeVice
Member
only the judgment of the ones in that room is credible.
the passengers on flight 93 knew they were going to die. the fight or flight reaction is an instantaneous rush. its the one you feel when you are startled by a loud noise, or a "boo!!". its probably the one that initially froze the passengers when the hi-jackers put the box cutter to their throats. therefore their fight or flight instinct had little to do with their decision to fight back, although it was used in the physical action of fighting the hi-jackers.
the fight or flight response of the students in the room was probably set to freeze. a sudden move (which i'm sure cho made clear) would result in their death. i'm sure the students had in mind the possibility that they could be saved, which is the key difference between this one and flight 93. they were probably expecting the swat team to bust through the door. they probably realized that making a movement would not only result in their death, but be the reason for many others, possibly more than what turned out. does anyone know the size of the construction, size, or number of students that were in the classroom. i imagine if the shooter kept a distance between him and the students, he would have time to pick each one off as they rushed him.
i remember reading an interview with a soldier who fought on d-day, who stormed off of the boats onto shore. i don't remember the number for chance of survival, but it was slim. when the interviewer commented on his bravery, his response was something to the effect of, "i wouldn't call it bravery. we were there, and had no other choice. we just did it. none of the training mattered."
the passengers on flight 93 knew they were going to die. the fight or flight reaction is an instantaneous rush. its the one you feel when you are startled by a loud noise, or a "boo!!". its probably the one that initially froze the passengers when the hi-jackers put the box cutter to their throats. therefore their fight or flight instinct had little to do with their decision to fight back, although it was used in the physical action of fighting the hi-jackers.
the fight or flight response of the students in the room was probably set to freeze. a sudden move (which i'm sure cho made clear) would result in their death. i'm sure the students had in mind the possibility that they could be saved, which is the key difference between this one and flight 93. they were probably expecting the swat team to bust through the door. they probably realized that making a movement would not only result in their death, but be the reason for many others, possibly more than what turned out. does anyone know the size of the construction, size, or number of students that were in the classroom. i imagine if the shooter kept a distance between him and the students, he would have time to pick each one off as they rushed him.
i remember reading an interview with a soldier who fought on d-day, who stormed off of the boats onto shore. i don't remember the number for chance of survival, but it was slim. when the interviewer commented on his bravery, his response was something to the effect of, "i wouldn't call it bravery. we were there, and had no other choice. we just did it. none of the training mattered."
Justin S.
Member
I don't think the comparison to Flight 93 is very useful here. The passengers had quite a bit of time to mull over the situation removed from direct visceral violence. Plus, people are usually a bit more edgy and mentally prepared for the worse on airplanes (an acknowledged risk) than a Uni. class. Furthermore, on an airplane there is no delusion of escape, no window to jump out of, no building to flee. It's much easier to actively resist when backed into a corner you know you can't get out of (especially in the few feet of aisle space in an airplane). To me the trauma of shock in each case is entirely different. I do agree with you that 15 minutes is more than enough time to snap to. I'm really surprised the students didn't defend themselves, even kids of our culture!
Concerning your generalization: Maybe correct, maybe not. You went to Uni., I'd assume most of those you associate with did as well. I am a student, as was my girlfriend, and there are others, even if a minority, that are certainly not your average middle/upper class shithead. I also disagree with your psychological profiling of this guy.
Concerning your generalization: Maybe correct, maybe not. You went to Uni., I'd assume most of those you associate with did as well. I am a student, as was my girlfriend, and there are others, even if a minority, that are certainly not your average middle/upper class shithead. I also disagree with your psychological profiling of this guy.
I now see why you're infamous Scourge.
I dont really think there's much we as society can get out of this, or learn from this. Clearly, a culture that ignores a paranoid psychotic and allows his easy access to firearms, is partly to blame. But other than that...
I dont really think there's much we as society can get out of this, or learn from this. Clearly, a culture that ignores a paranoid psychotic and allows his easy access to firearms, is partly to blame. But other than that...
JColtrane
Member
In other news, I am heartened to learn that the Holocaust Survivor(tm) ain't a survivor anymore. LOLZ!!!!
This comment, among others, are some of the most callous and idiotic opinions I've ever seen anyone put their name behind. Then again, I'm sure that YOU are just a weakling who would not voice these opinions in real life. In sum, until you've been in the same situation and attacked the guy with the automatic rifle, shut your pompous asshole of a mouth.
Justin S.
Member
Hardly. Most people are constantly callous. While I can understand why you might find his words distasteful, I don't doubt his conviction when serious.
Nihilism is no act.
I would rather run if a gunman was trying to shoot me. What am i gonna do? Dive and try and dodge the bullets while i throw something at him? I am positive if there was another student there with a glock, it prolly would have ended right there. But there wasnt, cuz guess what, university kids dont usually like carrying guns around in their trousers cuz they tend not to need them. Best thing to do in these situations is run like shit, you dirty fool.
If that fucking fag tried to pull that shit in any real place, like outside the pussified boundaries of a school, some fat black guy prolly would have taken out his uzi and blasted a cap in his ass. I dont think you realize how pussyish universities are, and schools in generals. They dont represent the balls of a country, they represent the education.
If that fucking fag tried to pull that shit in any real place, like outside the pussified boundaries of a school, some fat black guy prolly would have taken out his uzi and blasted a cap in his ass. I dont think you realize how pussyish universities are, and schools in generals. They dont represent the balls of a country, they represent the education.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Hmm, I don't see it as necessarily soo cowardly as just not thinking in tune with the situation. The students were thinking of their own safety first and foremost, thinking individually, and not as a group; hence they took actions which would increase their chance of survival at the individual level. Well, sort of ... as in reality thinking as a group would have saved many more individuals, but that isn't the mode of thought they were in.
Though it is cowardice to some extent (by the fact that few individuals had the gut to attempt to take the individual down on their own at least), we do live in times where nearly everyone is brought up to be stomach-less cowards, and brought up to think not by instinct or survival. And that does support your thought that they were dogs being shot as dogs, as most humans today are truly just that; our society makes them dogs. A quote comes to mind ...
"When it comes to the republicanism, there wasn't in the whole world an equivalence in nature - at least if we exclude the prairie dogs, an exception that - if anything - seems to prove that democracy is a very admirable system of government - for dogs." - Edgar Allan Poe
Oh well, really I feel no sympathy for the gonna-get-me-a-meaningless-box-job university students, or the idiot shooter. People die every day around the globe, and they aren't connected to me, so as death is inevitable, it's retarded to feel remorse for the hundreds of people that die around the globe each day. If someone close to me dies, I'd be hurt, but such events as this I don't even pay attention to except as signs of how stupid people are (and I get plenty of that everywhere else, anyway).
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Was one of my thoughts as well, though it is more of the conditions of their experience with society. As metalheads I know each of us experiences a great deal of just the sort of treatment that often creates such individuals as the shooters, and that could be a source of sympathy for "us."
Justin S.
Member
Έρεβος;6083341 said:
Would be interesting to know whether most here really do receive 'that sort' of treatment. I sure don't, though I guess I would have back in school on a fairly minor level. With the choice to be a 'metalhead' should come an acceptance of all that entails...
I was on campus the morning of the shootings and knew one of the professors who was killed. I understand some of the points you all are making but an experience like this truly is different when one is literally a member of the community. I think that if blame should be cast on anyone for cowardice and the killings, it should be the university administration and the local police department.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
True. I wasn't defending such fools that break under such as this, just saying how it *could* bring sympathy.
Why? Our modern taboo about getting all sympathetic and such about the dead and death? This "respect for the dead" thing really makes no sense at all. They are dead, nothing, or maybe something (and if that is so, then there is really nothing to be woeful about concerning their death anyway). Talking opinions about the conditions of their death has no effect on them, and shouldn't be judged with such "morals" -- they are gone, in the past. Learn from the past, but don't dwell upon it.
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