Double mic/panning/phase

[migreeni]

So:

If I were to use the on/off-axis double mic technique on my guitars, one performance per player, I would end up with a total of 4 guitar tracks. I'm not great at phase issues, so there will propably be some phase. What I want to know is if I pan the on axis-track left and off axis-track right, will I still have a phase issue? I would do the same thing vice versa with the other guitarists performance. So I'd have on my left player no.1's on axis-track and player 2's off axis-track and on the right player 1's off axis and player 2's on axis. Are there any other disadvantages and is it possible to still have a crushing metal sound?

I hope I was clear enough.

 

[migreeni]

*bump*

 

[Machinated]

Any kind of phase issues will be subjective as to whether they are bad or not, for example with the fredman micing its the difference in phase that gives that sound. Have a check in your DAW that the waveforms aren't completely cancelling each other out (you should be probably be able to hear this anyway). Otherwise go by your ears.

I was experimenting again yesterday with 2 mics on the cab, and reached the conclusion that I prefer one mic as there is less variables.

 

[AdamWathan]

You will probably still have some phase issues, but it should be a lot less. The performances are going to sound a lot less tight though and your guitar harmonies and stuff in the rhythm parts won't be panned correctly...

 

[Metaltastic]

Panning phase issues does lessen them because they're not canceled at the source (the speakers), but they still sound weird and fatiguing. Just monitor with headphones while moving the mics (with the volume low on the head and someone else playing), and move 'em until they sound best together!

 

[everybody's x]

Everything we do manipulates phase.

I use two mics on axis, I send white noise to the cab and monitor with headphones. Flip the phase on one channel. Position the first mic where you want it and lock it down. Move the second mic until the signal disappears (or as close as possible) this could be side to side, forward, backwards whatever gets you there. Flip the phase back and you should have a big at signal with most of the fizzy shit gone.
That's to put two mics IN phase.

The Fredman thing is different, it is manipulating phase to get a desired phase anomaly. EQing at the source.

 

[Disconnekt]

Also, it's not absolutely the end of the world if your two mics are out of phase, as long as you don't sum them to one track when you're tracking. You can always bump one of them around a sample at a time until they sound right together. I find when I'm placing mics that even with headphones on, the speakers in the cab are too loud to really tell the subtleties of what's going on anyway, so there's a lot of trial and error to get a good position. And if I end up with a placement where the mics are a bit out of phase but sound awesome together if I nudge one of the tracks after recording, then I stop messing with it.

 

[ahjteam]

Place the mics however you want (but make sure they sound good), then use the send from your DAW and send this to amp and record it in the DAW. The audioquality doesn't really matter because iit is just one loop of 500hz sine wave and few seconds of silence. Just dont send it too loud so you wont break your amp or speakercones.

When you have recorded it, zoom in at the tracks so that you see how the phases of the two mics are aligned in the DAW, see the distance from the measurement bar in samples (or milliseconds) and possibly use the phase reverse button if need. Then use a sample delay in the input of that track to align the incoming tracks.

 

[fooman]

Man do you guys really go through all this white noise, headphone placement, sample delay stuff everytime you mic up an amp? I'm not being pig-headed or stubborn, because a lot of you have much more experience than I do...

When I'm micing a cab for recording, I will use an i5 with a 421 or LDC on two speakers, and then place them how I think they will sound best together. I take into consideration the characteristics of the mic (gritty, hi-end bump, etc) and then move the mics pointing more to the center of the cone or more to the dust cover/edge. Depends on the part I'm tracking. If it sounds bad, I move the mics or try lowering the fader on one of the mic tracks to see if that gets me the sound I want.

I sometimes hit the phase-invert button in the DAW to check how close to perfectly in-phase I am... but if it sounds good then I don't care. Usually when it sounds nice and full, the phase button will yield a thin hi-fizz sound.

I've tried the headphone thing, but it didn't give me results I couldn't get without. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.