Double/Quad Tracking Mic'd Guitar "phase issues"?

[-Noodles-]

If you have the two tracks as individual tracks, not a single stereo, have you tried moving them around in the DAW (sample level movements)?

Sometimes if something isn't 100% right, and you've tracked it - it can be worth spending an hour or two to see if you can physically move the waveforms to achieve a better sound.

The joy of being digital.

 

[Sly]

I think you have to dial different tones depending on if you're quad tracking or if you're just recording 2 tracks :

In a quad-tracking situation I always find that when listening all the 4 tracks together, the high mids area tends to be harsh and I also get too much low mids. That may be because the presence and resonance were a bit too much cranked. That's why I usually have the presence around 7 and resonance around 7 too, sounds smoother and more balanced when the 4 tracks are together.
When double tracking, presence and resonance more cranked work great for me because they define the "final" character of the guitar sound.
All that is just a frequency issue : recording 4 guitars is like adding the same frequencies twice louder

Anyone like me ??

 

[devouredremains]

no,that's not what I'm saying. The issue is that that phase problems only occur between the two signals have a level of correlation, such as a single source miced with two mics. two separate performances do not have such a correlation or are uncorrelated. the device may have some affect on the sound, but it's not fixing the issue as you described it.

posting a clip of the problem will help. separate performances and then the combination.

What I think he is saying is that if you reamped one performance with two mics you can run into phase issues.

If you reamp multiple guitar tracks even with the mic and amp settings in the exact same position the minute differences in playing will prevent any phase issues.

 

[MetalWorks]

but the way I see it, a strange "sound" when doubling one side is due to untight playing 99% of the time.

The thing is that it's not just on parts where I would be sloppy. It's the whole time. And its not like I am playing my worst here. Usually if I am off when doubling parts it just sounds sloppy and unintelligent. The 2 performances are definately combining to create a problem.

If I get a chance tonight I will try to make some sample clips of the individual tracks and their combination.

As it stands, I tracked performance 1 with 2 mics. An SM57 on the edge of the dust cap and an i5 on the opposite side slightly further away to get a darker sound. The i5 is turned down -7dB to -10dB to add some fullness but still let the SM57 be dominant.

I have been using this method with moderate success in Mic'd guitar for a few months now.

I actually had a thread about the fact that everything I record with a mic sucks ass called Mic'd Cab Always Sounds Terrible. Now I record mic'd guitar sounds better than my direct sounds and no longer do the direct sounds.

Getting back to the point,

The two mics together from Performance 1 sound better combined than Performace 1 and 2 of the SM57 combined.

Now which one would be more likely to have the worst phase issue? 2 mic's on the same performance? Or 2 separate performances not matching up?

I am feeling like its more of the combined frequencies causing an effect but I will have to get the clips up for anyone to really judge.

 

[MetalWorks]

Alright, here is a sample Reamped using the COBHC DI track from the Production Tips Reamp Challenge thread. Completely Raw.

http://www.forktung.com/dietermination/MetalWorks_Reamp_DoubleTrack_Test.mp3

Essentially its a 5150 on Green Chanel with OD808 into ADL600 pre. I used OZ's mp3 as a reference. The first thing I noticed is that my track was WAY quiter than his to begin with which I think is because my Digi 192 is calibrated at -18db and I haven't messed with it yet. When I record with my Mic Preamp peaking at 0 the Final Pro Tools Peak is about -18dB. Oz's track was pretty much peaking near 0dB if I recall correctly. And the original DI was around -7dB. So I turned up the Preamp gain to make up for that volume loss and it may have heated up the signal a bit but I was mainly aiming for the double tracking problem and not ultimate sound quality. The pay off is I am realizing a downfall in my setup and I am loosing lots of volume or headroom in my guitar tracks which I am sure has been hurting me a little in my recordings when I have to make up the gain or turn all other tracks down.

Getting back on track....

The First part is Performance 1 Mono.

The Second part is Performance 2 added over Performance 1 in Mono. I just thought it would be easier to listen to then panning 1 100% left and panning 2 100% or 80% left.

It should have the same effect whether its panned left or mono up the middle. Everything usually sounds worse in mono anyway.

But it should be obvious that there are problems and the performance seems tight enough to rule out sloppyness or loose playing as the cause.

The Third part is Performance 1 100% Left and Performance 2 100% Right which sounds fine.

The outcome of Part 2 is exactly what I am having problems with when double tracking my own songs and I am having much better sounds using 2 mics on 1 performance than doubling anything.

So what's your take on that ppl?

 

[Aaron Smith]

You know, I might be entirely wrong here, but that slight phasey sound you get when the two takes are combined is not only normal, but I think it may actually be desirable. That may seem weird, but from listening to little raw guitar breaks from "The End Of Hearthache", "Resurrection", and the guitar tracks from the Rock Band .mogg for the DevilDriver song, it is pretty obvious to my ears when a guitar part is doubled and panned on top of itself, because you can hear that kind of slight phasey sound...and it seems to add a lot of depth to the overall guitar sound that isn't present when there's only one performance. And when the rest of the mix is in there, the phasey sound is no longer even noticeable. Try turning on the rest of your mix and see if you even notice it anymore. Also, have you tried turning down the volume of one of the performances just a bit? I think the maximum amount of phasey sound you can possibly get will be achieved when both performances are the same volume, so if you want to reduce the phaseyness a bit, then turn down one of the performances a bit until you have a good sounding blend.

 

[~BURNY~]

You know, I might be entirely wrong here, but that slight phasey sound you get when the two takes are combined is not only normal, but I think it may actually be desirable.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[MetalWorks]

Yeah, I had no choice but to turn down the 2nd performance to get rid of the phasey sound.

But still, the double mic sound in my situation still sounded better than the double performance in the current project I am working on.

Just seems like I have not had this problem when recording doubles in the past.

I'll have to keep messing with stuff.

You can definately hear it in my mix and it doesnt sound good.

Perhaps I will post something when I get a song finished.

 

[TLTD]

Just from constantly messing around with tracks for 20 years, I think there's something to the whole thing where you are dialing up the sound you want BEFORE you are achieving it with the other tracks. Too much bass can mess up the end result. Dial it down 3 notches even though you set out to achieve a thick low end result. It will be there once you add your other tracks. Best results might be achieved by using an high pass and not actually messing with your amp.

When I get a good quad tracked sound, sometimes I solo one of the tracks and can't believe how much is lacking but the overall result is just right.

The best sound I ever achieved was by only having one track that is bass boosted slightly and the other 3 with variously different sounds but two of those were high passed and one was the actual sound with nothing changed. Taking any of those away killed the whole thing. The heaviest sound was hard panned left and the other three were wide but not hard panned or panned in too close.

 

[SimonSez]

Try lowering the level of the doubled tracks so they are sort of "tucked under" the main guitar tracks.

 

[Aaron Smith]

I love that I forgot that I'd even posted in this thread, then found that what I wrote two years ago is what I was going to write again right now