DRAGON CON 2007 was METAAAAL!!!!!

[Pellaz]

Again, the fire marshall would not let them in the motel. That's why the small crowd. I heard that from several people who weren't happy they missed TTD.

Again, I must reiterate: at the same time as TTD's show was occurring, the other ballroom was quite full. It does not matter who was performing there, the fact is, there were 1,000+ people there. Those people didn't have any sort of secret entrance to the hotel to avoid the fire marshal, so saying that TTD's audience was affected by that is wrong.

Now, Vainglory's attendance was almost certainly affected by the temporary closing of the hotel, but TTD's set was much later in the evening when things had eased off. At one time earlier, from what I heard, there were 6,000 people in the lobby and Concourse floor of the Hyatt.

 

[Pellaz]

Don’t know what you know of what heavy metal is Paul, but comparing TLD to TTD is apples and oranges. Like comparing Gershwin and Zappa.

Correct. I wasn't comparing musical styles, I was comparing ballrooms and audiences. It does not matter what kind of band performed over in the Regency Ballroom opposite TTD, the fact is, with all things including ingress to the hotel being equal, one drew big numbers and the other drew smaller numbers.

Secondly it WAS their first year. And you seem to not recall your house band’s first year. Not cutting on those guys at all but The Cruxshadows’ first year was a CD player and a few CDs. And they got much less of a crowd. Would you like me to send you some video footage of it?

Yes, please do.

Come to think about it The Changlings was the same way the first couple of years.

That was way back, too. Paul M. thinks it was 12 or 13 years ago, or longer.

And I did see the Emerald Rose audience, if that was a lot of people then someone should get their eyes checked.

Which show? Surely you're not using the 400-person Thursday night audience as a barometer? You DO know the line for the Yule Ball (where they performed as part of the Harry Potter/Young Adult Fiction track) was so long, it was still snaking in when they finished their hour-long set? Hell, their acoustic set on the Concourse on Friday drew 250-300+.

As for what those other first timer bands pulled, more power to them and they looked good. Still there are many factors to consider there. One is a band influenced by the many faces of Danzing....blah blah blah

Yeah, at this point I think I'm going to tune out. No-one ever claimed Godhead was metal, but they are assuredly not Manson. Calabrese's audience was not too much of a traditional goth audience -- they were all over in Centennial watching Cruxshadows. They just did a tip-top job of promotion and it really showed.

I'll even point out that Calabrese's table was in a suckier location (along the back wall) than the two tables I carefully preserved for Vainglory and Twisted Tower Dire (in direct line of sight from Registration).

At one point the hotel, seeing that y'all's tables were still unoccupied as of 1pm on Saturday, pulled them to install a portable bar. (They LOOOOOVE Dragon*Con's alcohol money, does the Hyatt.) I just happened to be watching when they dragged the tables away, got into their faces and explained that yes, those tables were reserved for bands who were yet to arrive. Surprisingly, I was successful. They went away and I dragged the tables back into position.

Twisted Tower got in there and rocked it out like they should have. Granted they got off to a slow start. And not to mention they were overwhelmed by the magnitude of the event as well.

They played their hearts out in front of a small but enthusiastic audience, as if the crowd was ten or fifteen times bigger. THAT was awesome. And yeah, it really looked as if they were overwhelmed (in a good way) by the whole Dragon*Con experience. It really -is- like nothing else on Earth.

 

[Exploding Ned]

Again folks, relax. TTD was a first time at DC affair, not the many years at DC type thing those other bands had going. All due respect to the long time bands, but TTD were so late in the eve alot of people were either bummed by the lockout or too exhausted to attend. I've heard that alot. At any rate, all reports were that they did a great job, and should be commended. DC is a huge event, almost to the point of maybe too many things going on at once, but anyway TTD did enjoy the event and appreciated the opportunity. Now as for me, I'm ready to put it all behind me and look forward to Progpower as usual. Anyone care to join me?

Again, I must reiterate: at the same time as TTD's show was occurring, the other ballroom was quite full. It does not matter who was performing there, the fact is, there were 1,000+ people there. Those people didn't have any sort of secret entrance to the hotel to avoid the fire marshal, so saying that TTD's audience was affected by that is wrong.

Now, Vainglory's attendance was almost certainly affected by the temporary closing of the hotel, but TTD's set was much later in the evening when things had eased off. At one time earlier, from what I heard, there were 6,000 people in the lobby and Concourse floor of the Hyatt.

 

[Magius]

Again folks, relax. TTD was a first time at DC affair, not the many years at DC type thing those other bands had going. All due respect to the long time bands, but TTD were so late in the eve alot of people were either bummed by the lockout or too exhausted to attend. I've heard that alot. At any rate, all reports were that they did a great job, and should be commended. DC is a huge event, almost to the point of maybe too many things going on at once, but anyway TTD did enjoy the event and appreciated the opportunity. Now as for me, I'm ready to put it all behind me and look forward to Progpower as usual. Anyone care to join me?

That's just the point, isn't it? Two points actually:
As discussed in a previous thread Metal Fans are lazy, and want their Metal conveniently served on a silver platter. Show too late? Bail. Gotta wait out a lockout for an hour or so? Bail.

Second, TTD and Vainglory just didn't draw. It's not the lockout's fault, Dragon Con's fault, or anyone elses fault. The fact of the matter, which so many here seem to be in denial about, is that Metal or at least Traditional, Power, and Progressive Metal is for the most part dead in the USA. Other than a couple of thousand diehards nationwide- a cult following deep underground like us- nobody cares. As a matter of fact mainsteam America unapologetically makes fun of and laughs at Heavy Metal on a regular basis. Had a "hip" Metal style band like Soilwork or In Flames been brought in I'd bet numbers would have been much different.

Furthermore, it's pointless to compare how many fans the Gothic bands drew 15 years ago, because they drew that audience from a total Dragon Con attendance of 6000-8000, whereas today's attendance easily triples or quadruples those numbers.

Believe me I have several issues with Dragon Con. As I've stated unless a lot of things change, or there's something spectacultar occuring I don't expect to be back to another. However, the low turnout for the Metal bands wasn't Dragon Con's, the Hyatt's, the Fire Marshall's, or the venue provided's fault.

And lastly, please stop saying "Calm down." I haven't read one irate or unreasonable post in this thread.

 

[Exploding Ned]

Most music fans are lazy, not just metal fans. But I know if I'm living in Atlanta (and from talking with the attendees many if not most were from the Atlanta area) , drive downtown and pay for parking, and I then can't get into an event, my ladyfriend and I aren't going to stick around... and I don't consider that lazy... but apparently you do. If you want to think metal is a lost cause, go for it. I choose to be more optimistic.

That's just the point, isn't it? Two points actually:
As discussed in a previous thread Metal Fans are lazy, and want their Metal conveniently served on a silver platter. Show too late? Bail. Gotta wait out a lockout for an hour or so? Bail.

Second, TTD and Vainglory just didn't draw. It's not the lockout's fault, Dragon Con's fault, or anyone elses fault. The fact of the matter, which so many here seem to be in denial about, is that Metal or at least Traditional, Power, and Progressive Metal is for the most part dead in the USA. Other than a couple of thousand diehards nationwide- a cult following deep underground like us- nobody cares. As a matter of fact mainsteam America unapologetically makes fun of and laughs at Heavy Metal on a regular basis. Had a "hip" Metal style band like soilwork or In Flames been brought in I'd bet numbers would have been much different.

Furthermore, it's pointless to compare how many fans the Gothic bands drew 15 years ago, because they drew that audience from a total Dragon Con attendance of 6000-8000, whereas today's attendance easily triples or quadruples those numbers.

Believe me I have several issues with Dragon Con. As I've stated unless a lot of things change, or there's something spectacultar occuring I don't expect to be back to another. However, the low turnout for the Metal bands wasn't Dragon Con's, the Hyatt's, the Fire Marshall's, or the venue provided's fault.

And lastly, please stop saying "Calm down." I have'nt read one irate or unreasonable post in this thread.

 

[Heaven and Hell Records]

That's just the point, isn't it? Two points actually:
As discussed in a previous thread Metal Fans are lazy, and want their Metal conveniently served on a silver platter. Show too late? Bail. Gotta wait out a lockout for an hour or so? Bail.

Second, TTD and Vainglory just didn't draw. It's not the lockout's fault, Dragon Con's fault, or anyone elses fault. The fact of the matter, which so many here seem to be in denial about, is that Metal or at least Traditional, Power, and Progressive Metal is for the most part dead in the USA. Other than a couple of thousand diehards nationwide- a cult following deep underground like us- nobody cares. As a matter of fact mainsteam America unapologetically makes fun of and laughs at Heavy Metal on a regular basis. Had a "hip" Metal style band like Soilwork or In Flames been brought in I'd bet numbers would have been much different.

Furthermore, it's pointless to compare how many fans the Gothic bands drew 15 years ago, because they drew that audience from a total Dragon Con attendance of 6000-8000, whereas today's attendance easily triples or quadruples those numbers.

Believe me I have several issues with Dragon Con. As I've stated unless a lot of things change, or there's something spectacultar occuring I don't expect to be back to another. However, the low turnout for the Metal bands wasn't Dragon Con's, the Hyatt's, the Fire Marshall's, or the venue provided's fault.

And lastly, please stop saying "Calm down." I haven't read one irate or unreasonable post in this thread.

"deep underground like us". That just struck me funny

 

[Heaven and Hell Records]

Most music fans are lazy, not just metal fans. But I know if I'm living in Atlanta (and from talking with the attendees many if not most were from the Atlanta area) , drive downtown and pay for parking, and I then can't get into an event, my ladyfriend and I aren't going to stick around... and I don't consider that lazy... but apparently you do. If you want to think metal is a lost cause, go for it. I choose to be more optimistic.

Several guys can say it is a lost cause or there is not much of an underground or want for traditional metal. I know different for a few reason, one I'm there with those bands. Secondly that is what I deal with, traditional cult heavy metal and it makes a good living. So appearently someone wants it. And yes a lot goes out all over America. It's there just not on the cover of the Rolling Stones. (props to Dr. Hook)
There is one question that metal forums have always brought to mind, do these guys really like heavy metal?
Mike, I'm going back "underground" it is just to difficult to deal with people up here. Up here there is a lack of brotherhood, Disney scores are considered metal. And the heavy metal text book is sold in Best Buy. Certainly not my world.
I'll go back to my Manilla Road albums (that is heavy metal). Sweat it out with the traditional metal band who play in front of 20 people this weekend. Yeah, it would have been different if they had only put the little Mermaid in their band. Yet they keep it real. And I'm sure I'll see no internet forum metal head there. If oh so often happens that way. See ya Mike, going back to were metal is appreciated.

 

[Magius]

Lost cause? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say Metal was a lost cause. There are some very viable forms of Metal in the US. However, the current demand for Traditional, Power, and Progressive bands is miniscule. Twenty years ago bands like Dio, Saxon, and Cinderella sold out arenas. In the last ten years I've seen them all in bars, and Saxon drew a grand total of 40 people.

Perhaps you can make a living selling CD's of bands in these genres, as you can make enough selling a couple hundred of each title to make it worth your while. I suspect that most of those titles go to repeat customers, and a few hundred or even a couple thousand don't amount to much in a nation of 300 million people. And not many of those were in Atlanta last weekend.

As for optimism, my beliefs in supporting the local Metal scene are all laid out in this thread http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/328367-you-too-can-plan-metal-fest.html which has lengthy discussions on the subject I won't rehash here. That doesn't mean I don't recognize what a sad state of affairs the scene is currently in.

I wasn't happy about being locked out of the Hyatt. I wasn't happy about standing aqround on the sidewalk for an hour. I understand how frustrating it is, but if someone walked away because of that it's because they simply didn't care enough to put up with inconvenience.

Most music fans are lazy, not just metal fans. But I know if I'm living in Atlanta (and from talking with the attendees many if not most were from the Atlanta area) , drive downtown and pay for parking, and I then can't get into an event, my ladyfriend and I aren't going to stick around... and I don't consider that lazy... but apparently you do. If you want to think metal is a lost cause, go for it. I choose to be more optimistic.

 

[Exploding Ned]

My friend, power/prog/traditional metal is more popular now in the states than it was even 5 years ago. And comparing the metal scene now to 20 years ago is kind of strange, given that the entire music scene itself is on the skids now with the advent of all the competition for the entertainment dollar, file sharing etc. 20 years ago there was no internet, cell phones, video games were still archaic, smaller cities didn't have minor league sports teams that much, the list goes on and on. I'm thankful for the thousands of metal customers I have, and the new customers keep showing up all the time. And at DCon, I estimate 300-400 enthusiastic metalhedz stopped by over the weekend, that with almost zero metal on the bill there until this year. The only drop in metal I see is there are less new power metal bands coming up, other than that the scene is very healthy... and I've sold metal for 20 years so I do know trends if nothing else. Like I said, if you want to preach doom and gloom go for it. I see a whole different perspective.

Lost cause? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say Metal was a lost cause. There are some very viable forms of Metal in the US. However, the current demand for Traditional, Power, and Progressive bands is miniscule. Twenty years ago bands like Dio, Saxon, and Cinderella sold out arenas. In the last ten years I've seen them all in bars, and Saxon drew a grand total of 40 people.

Perhaps you can make a living selling CD's of bands in these genres, as you can make enough selling a couple hundred of each title to make it worth your while. I suspect that most of those titles go to repeat customers, and a few hundred or even a couple thousand don't amount to much in a nation of 300 million people. And not many of those were in Atlanta last weekend.

As for optimism, my beliefs in supporting the local Metal scene are all laid out in this thread http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/328367-you-too-can-plan-metal-fest.html which has lengthy discussions on the subject I won't rehash here. That doesn't mean I don't recognize what a sad state of affairs the scene is currently in.

I wasn't happy about being locked out of the Hyatt. I wasn't happy about standing aqround on the sidewalk for an hour. I understand how frustrating it is, but if someone walked away because of that it's because they simply didn't care enough to put up with inconvenience.

 

[Magius]

My friend, power/prog/traditional metal is more popular now in the states than it was even 5 years ago. And comparing the metal scene now to 20 years ago is kind of strange, given that the entire music scene itself is on the skids now with the advent of all the competition for the entertainment dollar, file sharing etc. 20 years ago there was no internet, cell phones, video games were still archaic, smaller cities didn't have minor league sports teams that much, the list goes on and on. I'm thankful for the thousands of metal customers I have, and the new customers keep showing up all the time. And at DCon, I estimate 300-400 enthusiastic metalhedz stopped by over the weekend, that with almost zero metal on the bill there until this year. The only drop in metal I see is there are less new power metal bands coming up, other than that the scene is very healthy... and I've sold metal for 20 years so I do know trends if nothing else. Like I said, if you want to preach doom and gloom go for it. I see a whole different perspective.

I really wish you'd quit making insinuations on my behalf that I disagree with. Just because I recognize that this scene is small doesn't mean I think it's disappearing. You know it is actually possible for something to be small but at the same time healthy and vibrant. You obviously and probably intentionally failed to read the other thread.
Yes, the Power, Traditional, and Progressive Metal scene is improved over 5 years ago. That's in no small part to our host Glenn Harveston. It also helps that a couple of bands have broken into the mainstream markets with the backing of the likes of Roadrunner. It's also the result of people like Hoyt, Nathan, Mayhem, John, and Tammy getting their local scenes stimulated. That doesn't mean there's a huge following currently.

It's also true that the music industry has a lower profit margin because of the reallocation of disposable income. But it's hardly bankrupt as you seen to imply. In recent years Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, Creed, Kid Rock, Usher, Justin Timberlake, Linkin Park, and many others have gotten rich in the music industry. It strikes me that there seems to be a lack of Metal artists on that list.

What I'd really like for you to explain to me is this: If the top Metal artists from 20 years ago now play bars instead of arenas, because of the music industry's economics, why then do the top artists from other types of music from 20 years ago still play arenas? Why do Journey, Styx, Madonna, Billy Joel, Elton John, and U2 play to 20,000 to 40,000 people while Dio plays to 200 and Saxon plays to 40? Also, why is TSO making millions of dollars, and Savatage is a non-functioning entity?

I hate to have to point it out to you, but DragonCon had between 20,000 to 30,000 attendees this year, but only 300-400 hundred stopped by Exploding Neds. I'm overjoyed that you got as many as you did. I hope you sold a ton of CD's, but even 400 is only 0.2% of 20,000. Of those 300-400 "enthusiastic metalhedz" 200-300 didn't even bother to show up to support the Metal acts.

I'm glad you have your customers. I truly am. I love the fact that people like you are able to provide the service to those who want it, and that you can make a living at it. Nevertheless, if someone comes into Almostanytown USA expecting some huge turnout for a Traditional, Power, or Prog Metal band they're going to be badly disappointed. That's just the way it is today. That doesn't mean that I don't hope for and expect things to keep improving.

Anyway It's pretty clear to me now why Paul and Derek checked out of this thread. I'm gone.

 

[Exploding Ned]

And... since most of your argument is off base, I too am checking out of this thread. Long live metal.

I really wish you'd quit making insinuations on my behalf that I disagree with. Just because I recognize that this scene is small doesn't mean I think it's disappearing. You know it is actually possible for something to be small but at the same time healthy and vibrant. You obviously and probably intentionally failed to read the other thread.
Yes, the Power, Traditional, and Progressive Metal scene is improved over 5 years ago. That's in no small part to our host Glenn Harveston. It also helps that a couple of bands have broken into the mainstream markets with the backing of the likes of Roadrunner. It's also the result of people like Hoyt, Nathan, Mayhem, John, and Tammy getting their local scenes stimulated. That doesn't mean there's a huge following currently.

It's also true that the music industry has a lower profit margin because of the reallocation of disposable income. But it's hardly bankrupt as you seen to imply. In recent years Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, Creed, Kid Rock, Usher, Justin Timberlake, Linkin Park, and many others have gotten rich in the music industry. It strikes me that there seems to be a lack of Metal artists on that list.

What I'd really like for you to explain to me is this: If the top Metal artists from 20 years ago now play bars instead of arenas, because of the music industry's economics, why then do the top artists from other types of music from 20 years ago still play arenas? Why do Journey, Styx, Madonna, Billy Joel, Elton John, and U2 play to 20,000 to 40,000 people while Dio plays to 200 and Saxon plays to 40? Also, why is TSO making millions of dollars, and Savatage is a non-functioning entity?

I hate to have to point it out to you, but DragonCon had between 20,000 to 30,000 attendees this year, but only 300-400 hundred stopped by Exploding Neds. I'm overjoyed that you got as many as you did. I hope you sold a ton of CD's, but even 400 is only 0.2% of 20,000. Of those 300-400 "enthusiastic metalhedz" 200-300 didn't even bother to show up to support the Metal acts.

I'm glad you have your customers. I truly am. I love the fact that people like you are able to provide the service to those who want it, and that you can make a living at it. Nevertheless, if someone comes into Almostanytown USA expecting some huge turnout for a Traditional, Power, or Prog Metal band they're going to be badly disappointed. That's just the way it is today. That doesn't mean that I don't hope for and expect things to keep improving.

Anyway It's pretty clear to me now why Paul and Derek checked out of this thread. I'm gone.

 

[Pellaz]

I hate to have to point it out to you, but DragonCon had between 20,000 to 30,000 attendees this year,

The 'official lie' (convention chairman's words) this year is 30-35,000. That's for the fire marshal's benefit, I think. It was almost certainly much higher.

but only 300-400 hundred stopped by Exploding Neds. I'm overjoyed that you got as many as you did. I hope you sold a ton of CD's, but even 400 is only 0.2% of 20,000. Of those 300-400 "enthusiastic metalhedz" 200-300 didn't even bother to show up to support the Metal acts.

One thing I'd suggest to Mike ('Ned') in the future, if he does Dragon*Con again, would be to have some way for people to 'step in' to his tables or booth to check out the CDs, so as to get out of the traffic flow. People don't feel as comfortable browsing through CDs when there is traffic in the aisles around them.
It's not a real problem at, say, the Atlanta Record Show, but at Dragon*Con, there's a substantial and steady flow in the aisles that people, either consciously or subconsciously, feel guilty about holding up.

Anyway It's pretty clear to me now why Paul and Derek checked out of this thread. I'm gone.

I'll drop it here; after all, we have ProgPower to look forward to.

BTW, I'm working on my pics and videos from Dragon*Con. Here is a link to my ever-growing portal page.

 

[Heaven and Hell Records]

By the gods, there is a lot of ass kissers in these forums. Is this what is done in forums? Maybe if people got off the damn computer and went outside maybe the scene would grow. There was a reason I got away from these things long ago. For some reason Wrathchild America words come to mind.
Don't remember metal ever being any bigger than it is now, hell there are several things that point out that it is bigger than 20 years ago. My suggestion get off the computer and go out and you will see it. And Cinderella metal? Well that has me scratching my head.
And buddy I'll let you know the next time I see Styx and Journey at the county fairs, it happens every year. And you forgot to mention that all those bands tend to share bills just to sellout shows. That's why KISS and Aerosmith went on tour together. Still that doesn’t help all the time.
And bringing up pop acts doesn't fly, 20 years ago even 30 there was the same thing. And the Creeds and Kid Rocks are just today’s Bon Jovis. (how does one plural Jovi?)
I'm with ya Mike. There just seems to be to much Rolling Stones rock n roll in these forums. For those who don't get that then you just proved my point.
Lester Banks said rock and roll died a longtime ago. Good thing it did or forums would have killed it by now.