May 29, 2001
Southern California
I've never used pot or alcohol. I don't even drink anything with caffeine any more. I don't need anything to keep my attention on music that's more then 3 minutes long. I've been a Dream Theater fan for a while before I heard Opeth so I'm used to long songs (they ahve a 23 minute long song). I've seen how people look and act drunk and have no interest in it. I can have fun without drugs. I naturally don't have many inhibitions, i wouldn't want drugs to take away the rest.
I tried to smoke pot a couple of times, but met no mentionable effects at all. It could be, that as a non-cigarettesmoker I did something wrong. Hehe. But anyway, that was a couple of years ago, and I've had no need to touch that stuff since. I decided that I'd would be better not to know the possible good effects. I might like it too much. And none of my friends are active smokers anymore, so I don't come up with the idea anymore, cause I don't even think about it.

Stoned people are usually fucking irritating. But then again, so are drunken people too. And I'm getting seriously bored of drinking at the moment. Now I don't know about you guys out there, but in Finland there's a huge social pressure.
(READ : I _don't_ want to be sober with my drunken friends. It's really beyond a human's mental tolerance :) And since most of my friend do nothing but booze, I'll either stay home alone, or have a "drink or two".)

Well, it's really not THAT bad, but you see I tend to drink when I'm fucked and depressed and so on. And I'm not. I'm happy. Really. So it feels really wrong to waste my time on boozing.

Oh, the point! Creativity can't be hidden into some funny-looking leaves. That would be too stupid even in the scale of this galaxy.
Hehe, man me too !
I didn't taste the alcohol before grew 18, then I've got university
and the shit began... For two years I could not live a day without drinks, I began to smoke like a locomotive. Then I fell in love with
one beautiful bitch and she teached me to smoke cannabis. All this things I did being Christian ! Finally I began to feel my brains are melting. I began to keep myself far from my friends-drunkards to loose myself from this shit. And thank God now I'm free !!! And since my old friend could not understand me I've got new friends in metal.:)
its good to see that there's people here that don't need drugs to be able to view life from a different angle.

I'm 22 now.. been thru a hellavalot of shit with drugs and am very proud to say that I've learnt a lot, sufferent a lot and don't do any kind of drugs, PSYCHOLOGICAL or MATERIAL drugs anymore. 'Psychological' in the sense that ways of thinking (like religion or negative or positive patterns for that matter) can be a drug too... not just the material aspects of life like chemicals, food, other habits etc..

So in short, chemicals are not drugs. nothing is a drug. the use of it in overbalance is... everything has a duality so you choose your destiny. If you choose to abuse something it will no doubt rape you back... its just the universal law of 'what you give is what you get'. (talking from experience with my experimentation days with lsd, extacy, speed and pot. I was punished to say the least)

But the overall point is, you don't need chemicals to show you how to look at life in a different angle and gain some kind of insight, because you can do it in a more healthy alternative way... which is QUESTION EVERYTHING.
Curiosity is the factor which makes people geniouses, because you question and hence discover more and know more. Our society is brought up not to question authority and therefore we are raped of our genious factor. Just realise this and take back what is yours.
Music is a psychological drug to me. I've been in Helsinki these last five days living the high life, but without any means of listening to cds. I had to whistle tunes to myself to dampen the need for music.

Saying only an over-used element constitues a drug is an interesting concept, but it renders this issue more complicated than I care to make it. Your anti-drug way of thinking could be one of those positive or negative thinking patterns you speak of, for example.

Hey Protocol, :)

hope your wild times are going ok...
anyway yeah... I always think to myself 'am I being closed to other conceptions and relevations by thinking that I'm right?' so I always try to question and refine something... cause I live by that ole saying 'question all authority, including your own' (and thanx for reminding me of it... you're quite observant I notice).... hopefully conversations like this can help to refine something I think is the 'prima materia', better known in english rather than alchemical terms as 'the pure essence'.

And to me I try to find the essence, without all the dogmatic bullshit, without all the restraints, ties and cultural crap. I just want to understand the pure essence of what that thing is... and when I try to understand the universe, and such things as drugs etc, I try to break it down to the ultimate level no matter how complicated it is... (because Sloth to me is just something that gets in the way. I've had that demon possess me quite a bit in my life so I know its presence.)

Anyway, I notice that everything has a duality (and you can try to challange that and see if you can think of something that doesn't ;) ), and that duality is built of both negative and positive elements, which further refines into evolutionary and de-evolutionary, which is the base elements in life, what it can't be broken down into further, the prima materia.
Now with this in mind, we see that the essence in life is to either evolve or de-evovle, and anything with the de-evolutionary elements is deathly in existance. Now I'm not anti-drug. I don't think chemicals are drugs... only the overbalanced, or underbalanced use directly correlated with the necessity at hand. So for me to use a chemical(or anything else in existance for that matter including thought) when it is not needed, or to use a chemical in overbalance and cause harm, or use a chemical in underbalance and not receive the desired result seems 'stupid'. Totally moronic. If I wanted to I could align myself with de-evolution, but I don't want to die. For to be in pure alignment with de-evolution would be to be pure death.... non-existant.

I respect the wisdom of darkness (de-evolution) and understand its laws and powers and positive and negative duality (and use of the positive... which I can explain if you want). I acknowledge it without segregating myself from it like religion is trying to do to itself and the rest of society these days and totally deny its wisdom and existance (which I think is stupid, because no matter where wisdom comes from it should not be discriminated), and at the same time align myself with evolution and continually grow as a part of Nature.

There is no light without dark. Together they create Nature.. the whole, the expression of perfection. You can't segregate nature... de-evolution (represented by the mythical being satan) + evolution (represented by the mythical idiot, god) = Nature.

If we could not make mistakes and die and feel the pain of de-evolution we could not learn and therefore evolve. The formulae for exitance would not work. So I think its regressive for jesuit and other 'positive' based religions to shun on the dark wisdoms.
But then again Satanism acknowledges the dark wisdoms, but not the light. I think they're both fucked. Thats why I am an ecletic being. I don't need a crutch like religion. I make up my own conception of what the universe is and give my own brain a workout.

So this is what I've managed to work out being my eclectic questioning self about drugs. What do you think? I'd love to hear what any of you thinks really. Bring it on... he heheh...
Hohooo! Yes, my wild times were going quite well. Wild times, not stupid times, which is why 950 of the 1000 dollars I spent in five days was not my own money. And not particularly dangerous at all in any way. Simply good times. :D

I find myself enjoying more and more of these conversations on this board. I've been mostly confined to monologues and solitary thinking before, so it's quite a rush finding other people who actually _think_. It can be called therapy or education, or a search for the essense of life. I like to call it a game for 1 player minimum (though 2 seems ideal). I like to think of most things as games. Gives me a good perspective to work with.

About sloth - I'm also the laziest person I know. Thinking, reading, writing, musing, music and art, and even a bit of work every now and then, in all I operate on whims. The game of what I can accomplish with the lazy-handicap.

Duality is also an important thing - contrasts. We would not know 'light' without 'darkness', 'pain' without 'pleasure', etc, etc. I gather from your writing that when you speak of alcohol and above you talk of abuse - overuse. Completely dismissing them on account of everyone would be rather narrowminded, and almost as stupid as abuse. Completely dismissing them on account of only yourself is a defendable position, but not much fun in a debate:

-I drink.
-Oh really? I don't.

'Degustibus non est disputandum' is what comes to mind. You enjoy the occasional sip of wine or pint of beer? I know I do. =)

Of religion - my opinion on religion (as a whole) is rather simple since it's such a complex issue. A model that describes it all must be rather simple to fit: Religion has a place in the world, but not in my personal system. Religion, ideology and philosophy all overlap on my map, and I do enjoy discussing theology.
LOL @ Protocol...
your spending someone elses money? Gotta shake your hand for that... now thats economic strategy!

Also its good to see that there are others that like to think too. Was starting to think this worlds going down the shit plug... apart from a select 'tortured' few which have to watch the 'dopeshow' go on and everyone getting high on death.. but I see the few are actually more than a few... so thats great to see.

On Duality - yeah I totally agree with you on the dissmissal comment. I think that EVERYTHING has its negative and positive use. Just depends how you want to play the game. So you can't dismiss anything, just the way its used. But then again the herd can't think for itself and will always listen to the pastor and his implanted thoughts and consequently point the finger when they don't even have their own eyes to see.

And I do think religion has a place.. to teach people that you can't rely on someone else telling you what to think, because to evolve you must think for yourself. That is one of the biggest hypocrisies of religion I think. You can't question anything 'they' say, so how can you learn, find the lies and the truth from not asking questions? Religion is a total farse. Its DE-evolutionary in the most perverted of ways. a fucking fraud.
And I respect you Protocol for choosing to think your way thru your own existance. Thats what I think everyone should do. Build their own path. Its the only sure way you will get a job well done.

Have you heard of that prophecy that the anti-christ will manifest (in one of its many manifestations) into the church and have the face of christ? Its already happening.... I can see it so clearly. The church prostituting its sins in the name of christ. What whores.

and yes sloth.. one of the seven deadly sins... that ones one of the hardest devils to beat don't you think? I've beaten Fear easily enuff... I've beaten Weakenss in all its glitter and glory (as in retraining myself from all my addictions) .. and a few other persences. You know what? well kick this ones ass too don't you worry. Go past that pain in your mind when you feel its presence... and program your mind to love that pain.... become a sadomasochist whore that wants to be whipped more! :)

ps: you know how you said you view life as a game? well its uncanny cause I view life as a movie.. and I'm the director. I can make people do things by doing certain things, I can affect the pool of life by throwing my stones from a distance or close. I have total control. its quite an empowering way to look at things. Also I like the game way of looking at it. Cause it puts you in that competetive state of mind that drives you like the drifting snow.

kill... kill.... KIIIILL!

We are the macrocosm fooling ourselves to be the microcosm
Interesting. I always viewed life as a masquerade.

A masquerade of people trying to keep up the outward appearance of self-confidence, schmooze and dance and drink and all the time wonder why. They wear their little masks and focus on the present and the tasks at hand, the flashing lights and the bad music and the trying to accomplish insignificant social goals and just get through the evening. They keep their religions in their back pocket like the designated driver (one who they fail to realize is driving without a license) to get them to a home they can only hope exists. But at every party there is at least one individual who watches from a distance and plays people off one another and amuses himself with his analysis of the whole thing, aware and enjoying the rarity and power of his own awareness, knowing that at the end of the evening he is capable of driving himself home. He carries several masks he can apply if he wishes and throw himself into the dance for a thrill or sit back quietly with a tasty beverage and observe.

...okay, actually, I just made that up now, but I like it. Heh.

I like that too the way you've put it... its like my movie and director take on life, but with different imagery... more well thought out imagery and quite refreshing to the ole doubtful mind. Y'know I like this coversation we are having. Its so empowering.

Cheers buddy

you let them take control in fear of what they'd do - Marilyn Manson
I don't consider religion as a whole one big bad singularity, but what you've said does fit christianity pretty well, especially if you consider its history. Goddess.org has some pretty interesting stuff on whores and christianity, although carefully laced with its own propaganda. (Being a whore is actually a good thing. Whoo.)

Fear is rather easy to beat when you don't care enough. Weakness is a matter of definition. Sloth - well, I really can't do anything much about it when it gives me the time to enjoy this board. Isn't seven deadly sins a christian notion? ;D

The movie thing seems like fun. Is that how you interact with the world all the time or is it a part-time powertool?

Making stuff up is good, Hoser.

.I am Protocol.
It (this forum) can be called therapy or education, or a search for the essense of life. -Protocol

I really liked that. :)
Pro-tocol, <smartass gryn!>

well not only christianity.. muslim, orthodox, judeism, blahdy blahdy blah. The rare religions, which aren't really religions anyway, such as wicca and other paganistic paths (I don't know about buddhism saying anything like this, but it holds quite a bit of wisdom), always say that one should search in for knowledge from everyplace and use what is useful. Be eclectic and not be trapped by the religious cage. This I truly respect... So sorry for that little generalisation.... that was nasty of me. :) but I didn't mean it as I didn't notice I did it.... and well... I though you could read my mind while I was writing that with those types of prison like religions.

and I shall check out that link too. thanx.

as for the movie perspective... yes I try to all the time. though I don't really have a choice because my lucidity (using that word without trying to sound too pretencious) makes me not go back to the less evolved vision I had before. But there are times when I relapse and the 'demons' come back to haunt me. So I just remember the tool and use it to slaughter what makes me loose control, crash and then burn. Now I'm also trying to incorporate that game perspective into the one I'm using because its accentuates the already persent element of strategy, but makes it less serious. So basically it makes it more fun I think... and I'm a playful character so it suits. :)

and about the Fear Daemon.. well you have to always think about balance and logic while forming the battle equation. Cause you may defeat the fear demon with that tactic of not caring enough, but you can fall victim to the Daemon of Stupidity and get into something you cannot handle.

also how do you see weakness as a matter of definition? Weakness is weakness... its that point that makes us break. be it in the psychological or physical dimensions. Anyway I explain to me cause I may have missed something in my perspective sights.

see ya for now.....

I think I mentioned in an earlier post how I really can't see the big difference between religion, ideology and philosophy. It's all such a mess:

"Religion is about faith, faith is belief, faith in a supernatural dogma, philosophy is about belief, how you believe the world works, ideology is about belief, how you believe societies work. All about belief.

Religion has its dogma, rules of religious society, philosophy is about the world - society is a big part of the human world, ideology is about society, hyman systems and ideas. All about society.

Religion pertains to the world, it's origin and future, ideology pertains to the world society, philosophy pertains to the world, how it works. All of the world."

Many people are just as trapped in their ideological and philosophical beliefs as others are in their religious beliefs.

>that little generalisation.... that was nasty of me.
>but I didn't mean it as I didn't notice I did it

I find aggressive interpretation to be the best way of finding out what people really are saying. Human communication is far from perfect to begin with and there is plenty of room for misunderstandings on msgboards. It makes people think more about what they're writing, if they're capable of thinking. Otherwise it makes them angry. (Very handy polarization method for msgboardwars and what not.)

Yes weakness can be that point that makes us break. But what I think of as weakness mostly is that point that makes me change. I wouldn't be changing if the change didn't appear to make things better now would I?

.I am Protocol.
Originally posted by Protocol
Many people are just as trapped in their ideological and philosophical beliefs as others are in their religious beliefs.

Well said, I couldn't agree more! It's sad to see so many people trapped in this way, for them, philosophy or ideology or whatever is just another alter which they bow to, and that's pathetic. Univiersity philosphy profs are often like this, so short-sighted that they can't see their hand in front of their faces and are more wrapped up in subjective interpretive crap than some half-assed religious people I've known.

Most (I would say almost all) philosophy is built on ideals and limted humanistic interpretation and they are all so high on themselves. It's just bullshit, a non-theist religion of sorts.

The only philosphy that I've ever found that acknowledges it's own inherent speculative bullshit is zen buddhism. It says a lot and yet says nothing and it's the only vein of thought I've ever come across that is entirely self-contradictory and self-defeating by it's very nature and I find this very humble and very cool. It's similarities to the driving philosophy behind quantum physics is simply staggering as well. Zen has been saying for thousands for years what modern science now regards as "fact", and I find this particularly cool. Einstein was a god.

There is a humanistic component to zen as well aimed at helping people with their various fears, psychosis, etc, but it's entirely built on non-belief. Anyone who actually "believes" in zen buddhism is not a zen buddhist cuz there's really nothing to believe and if they believe in it literally then they are missing the point entirely. It's just a bunch of metaphysical observations meant to point out the inherent duality and invalidity of perspective, and even the ideas and observations that are part of the philosophy are subject to it's own tendency to say that everything we see/interpret is complete interpretive crap. Zen is a system of psychology, philosophy, and metaphysics which is only a method of viewing reality that is helpful and illuminating to some people, those who were born with their brains wired toward mysticism/existentialism and unfortunately this makes it kinda out of the reach of most people, but hey, rocket science isn't for everyone either, that doesn't make it any less cool. As far as I know, and I've read quite a bit over the years, zen is the only philosophy that is entirely self-defeating. So as you say, philosophy is a trap just like religion, but I feel an exception should be made for zen (the anti-philosophy) cuz it is not a trap in any way and perhaps the most primary point of it is to not become trapped by it, unlike other philosophies which place so much value on their own half-baked "truths". If someone becomes trapped by zen then they haven't yet negated it and are missing the point of it entirely. Zen is crap. The idea that zen is crap is also crap. Belief is the trap to be avoided. When we trust our senses we become imprisoned by them. There is really no escape from interpretive bullshit, so all we can do is wake up to the fact that we are complete idiots and that we ultimately know nothing cuz knowledge is subjective interpretation and a grossly incomplete model, then even though we are trapped in our own relativistic thoughts we at least know not to take them seriously or dwell on them so much. It's a very hard thing to try to explain, and I hope I've made some sense at least. Of course, we still have to live and behave like humans and follow rules and such, we just don't need to do it quite so seriously and place so much credence in our ideology cuz that is the trap that binds the mind in "belief" and makes us the stupid, angry, warring, and selfish idiots that history has shown us we are.

Is there any wonder why most religions seek to trap people in "faith" and "belief"? I find the idea of "faith" quite repugnant and quite a horrible mind-fuck that traps people in their own perspectives and they rarely escape from it. Faith is people convincing themselves they believe something which they know is ridiculous. Faith is praised like some sort of saviour and I think it's a self-imposed prison. If someone says to me "have faith etc." then I have to ask, why? If what you are telling is true then I don't NEED faith. The idea that god expects us to believe in something that is pretty unbelievable and threatens with hell cuz we are incapable of swallow the bullshit is just so incredibly silly that I have a hard time realizing that some people actually get wrapped up in this crap. It's so obviously bullshit, denoted clearly by the "ye must have faith" crap, if it were actually true they wouldn't tell us we have to try to force ourselves to believe it. It's such a nasty head-fuck that's aimed at those in our society who are the most feeble minded and the least independent and it's these people who need the most protection from such scams. It's so ironic it's sad. Brain-washing should be illegal. The people who get sucked in by religion are those who need the most protection from it and who suffer the most fear/pyschosis as a result of it. My heart goes out to them and I wish they weren't so afraid of life/death. What's to be afraid of? That's something I'll never understand again since recovering from my own form of catholic OC psychosis as a child. Religion must die, we've evolved beyond it's purposefulness.

The rain trickles and the birds sit in silence.