Drum editing: Elastic Audio, slip edit, Beat Detective?

Heabow

More cowbell!
Aug 24, 2011
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France
First of all, merry xmas to ya'll!

I used Elastic Audio for the first time a few days ago on some bass tracks. Set on monophonic. It worked pretty well! I did not used it on drums yet but I read it's great too. Until now I've always used slip edit for drums. For some reasons, I've never really used Beat Detective because it failed almost every time I tried (even when doing tests following tons of tutos - I must be idiot?).

I'd like to have your opinion about your drum editing technique preferences (slip edit, beat detective, elastic audio). What works best for you and why. Also as I'm new with EA, having some tips and tricks, advices... could be great.

Thanks!
 
EA only on small parts that need streching cause it would loop ugly otherwise, and I also don't stretch the transient.
BD for the rest of it.
 
I use Beat Detective almost exclusively, except for tricky/complex sections which I do by hand. I almost never use Elastic Audio unless I need to lengthen a cymbal or drum hit here and there. Elastic Audio causes too many weird phase issues to use too often.
 
I'm a big fan of BD, I don't like to quantise my drums 100% to grid and BD enables me to keep some of the drummer's groove but tighten it up.
 
When I have the time, I like to quantize by hand, making sure each cut is exactly right, then letting beat detective backfill and crossfade. On the complex stuff, this usually doesn't take that much longer than using regular beat detective. I wish I had the time to do it this way more often. OCD, ya know?
 
Thanks gentlemen!

That sums what I was thinking about EA. Great tool but on small parts that need to be fixed only.

I must do something wrong with Beat Detective. Almost everytime I use it, the hits are not relocated in correct places. Even on simpler parts with correct settings. Do you guys have some tips about that or a link to a good tutorial? I used to cut the song every 16 or 32 bars for example then place the first hit of each part on the time then analize it with BD. I don't know what I'm missing but the results are total chaos after the "fix".
 
I used elastic audio once for drum editing. Instant crap results. I always use beat detective unless it's really bad or beat detective doesn't pick up on it, then I cut and move the transients manually. I use elastic audio for guitar DIs, Bass and vocals. Seems to work good for that.
 
I forgot to say that I noticed that PT crashes pretty often when using EA. Does it happen with you guyz as well?
 
Thanks gentlemen!

That sums what I was thinking about EA. Great tool but on small parts that need to be fixed only.

I must do something wrong with Beat Detective. Almost everytime I use it, the hits are not relocated in correct places. Even on simpler parts with correct settings. Do you guys have some tips about that or a link to a good tutorial? I used to cut the song every 16 or 32 bars for example then place the first hit of each part on the time then analize it with BD. I don't know what I'm missing but the results are total chaos after the "fix".

I seem to have the same problem with BD. Most drummers I record are pretty decent so that doesn't seem to be the problem. Right now I edit everything by hand.
 
Are you guys sure you're capturing the selection correctly and everything? I'm on Pt 10.3.7 and it's the best version of BD that I've ever used. On simpler material I've been editing entire songs in like five minutes. I do remember in earlier versions the capture selection button (or whatever it's called) didn't work very well. If you grabbed any amount before the first bar, it would align things based on beat four instead of beat one. They seem to have fixed that in the later versions though. Maybe that's it? Pay close attention to the bar/ beat numbers after you define the selection.
 
If I have to use PT beat detective it goes crazy sometimes if the selection isn't on a 1 count so quantize is the way to go IMO.
Use BD to find and split at transients then use quantize then back to BD for edit smoothing and fill gaps.

I much prefer Logic in slicing mode because it doesn't separate the regions.
The only problem is it is missing "trigger pad" so you can end leaving hats or rides early and glitchy sounding when you quantize the shells. Easily fixed but annoying. A variable trigger pad would be very welcome.

Lately I have been getting the drummer to do 2 passes.
Pass 1 is the whole kit but I just keep the kicks and quantize them then get the drummer to do a hands only pass then quantize that.
This is working brilliantly and makes editing much faster. When a drummer flams the kick and snare on double kick parts or even plays badly I can get clean edits.
When I track the whole kit in 1 go I find that I usually need to edit the kick independently of the rest of the kit for double kick parts causing bad phase with the overheads and room.
Another plus of having kick only and hands only passes is I can copy kicks with no phase issues or "thuds" in the overheads and room mics, letting me keep more low end in the ohs and room which realy help the snare and toms punch.

Elastic editing stretches the transients and makes a balls of the drum sound and should not be used IMO
 
I had the most fucked up bug on BD on pro tools 9, it took me forever to figure out why, but basically what happened was I would hit separate, then conform and then as soon as I conformed regions they disappeared. Flat out gone! I found out one day that it ended up having something to do with recording regions overtop other regions without creating a new playlist or deleting them. Ever since then I have never had a problem with it. I follow the method that was in a thread here many years ago. I think Andy and James Murphy chimed it and helped. I can't find it though. :(

Edit: I don't know if this is the thread I was talking about but there is some good info here:

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/backline/500636-beat-detective-discussion.html?
 
Reason 7 because of the auto-detection and nice translucid stretch quality between detected beat/notes.
 
Strangely, I've been having success with using Elastic Audio on drums in PT10.3.7 lately.

I tried it for some quick-and-dirty editing on prepro drum tracks for some songs that were tracked without a click, and it absolutely worked, to my great surprise. It wasn't exactly perfect, but in the mix, it was difficult to pick out any artifacts.

The basic workflow was like this:

1. Set all tracks to tick-based.

2. Enable EA in Rhythmic mode on the kick, snare and tom mics. Enable EA in Polyphonic on the hat, ride, overhead and room mics.

3. Delete all analysis trigger points on the hat, ride, overhead and room mics. Clean up analysis trigger points in the kick, snare and tom tracks so that you're left with trigger points only on the hits you're going to be moving. This isn't necessary, but it does make life a LOT easier, considering you cannot see the grid when in Warp mode in EA.

4. Go into Warp view, making sure that all of your drum tracks are grouped (same as editing in Beat Detective or manually), and add a warp marker to the beginning and the end of the tracks (TRACKS MUST BE GROUPED!!) so that moving a hit doesn't totally fuck the timing to hell and back. The placement of these warp markers doesn't matter a whole lot, but I like to place them directly on the grid at the beginning of a measure. That may just be a bit of my anal-retentiveness coming through, though.

5. Align by hand. This is one of the most important parts, I've found. Using the event quantize menu can seem fast, but every time I use it, the phase coherence between the mics starts to go. I'm not sure why, but aligning each marker by hand seems to yield better results. Of course, you can also dial in the feel much better this way.

6. Now for the last, very important step. If you don't do this, kiss any chance of phase coherence goodbye. Do this individually for each track: Select the audio clip, right click, and select Elastic Properties. Next to Event Sensitivity, click "Reset." It will give you a warning that it may move markers, etc. It will not screw up what you've done, so just select OK and move on to the next clip. You must do this for each track individually.

The reason for this last step is this: If there are zero analysis markers in the track, the edit points will not render correctly, they'll be all over the place, timing-wise. By placing the analysis markers back into the track, you're giving EA something to render against, if that makes sense. Now, usually, with a track like a bass or guitar DI or a vocal, these unused analysis markers would create audible artifacts in anything but XForm mode, but due to the nature of a drumkit, these artifacts seem to be nearly gone. At least to my ears.

Now you can render each track. I usually like to Alt-drag the clips to new tracks, and hide/make inactive the edit tracks, so that I can go back and tweak the edit if I need to. Make sure these new tracks are tick-based. I'm not sure how much of an impact this has, but better safe than sorry.

Of course, a well-played track edited via slip will almost always sound better, but for those projects where you're under a time crunch, or for prepro tracks...or tracks where the drummer was insanely off, this may be the way to go. It's about as fast as BD, maybe a bit faster if you're locking straight to the grid, and it'd definitely faster than regular old slip-style editing.

If I can remember to do it, I'll edit up a clip via slip and EA tomorrow during some down time and post clips. Knowing how finicky EA can be, I fully expect this to work consistently with great results......Right up until the moment you have to do something important with it. Prepro tracks no one will ever hear?Sure, no prob! Actual album production? Lemme just fuck that phase up for you!

Sorry for the long post, gents. I've been cooped up with the flu the past few days, so my mind's a'spinning! Hope this helps some of you guys.
 
Strangely, I've been having success with using Elastic Audio on drums in PT10.3.7 lately. I tried it for some quick-and-dirty editing on prepro drum tracks for some songs that were tracked without a click, and it absolutely worked, to my great surprise. It wasn't exactly perfect, but in the mix, it was difficult to pick out any artifacts. The basic workflow was like this: 1. Set all tracks to tick-based. 2. Enable EA in Rhythmic mode on the kick, snare and tom mics. Enable EA in Polyphonic on the hat, ride, overhead and room mics. 3. Delete all analysis trigger points on the hat, ride, overhead and room mics. Clean up analysis trigger points in the kick, snare and tom tracks so that you're left with trigger points only on the hits you're going to be moving. This isn't necessary, but it does make life a LOT easier, considering you cannot see the grid when in Warp mode in EA. 4. Go into Warp view, making sure that all of your drum tracks are grouped (same as editing in Beat Detective or manually), and add a warp marker to the beginning and the end of the tracks (TRACKS MUST BE GROUPED!!) so that moving a hit doesn't totally fuck the timing to hell and back. The placement of these warp markers doesn't matter a whole lot, but I like to place them directly on the grid at the beginning of a measure. That may just be a bit of my anal-retentiveness coming through, though. 5. Align by hand. This is one of the most important parts, I've found. Using the event quantize menu can seem fast, but every time I use it, the phase coherence between the mics starts to go. I'm not sure why, but aligning each marker by hand seems to yield better results. Of course, you can also dial in the feel much better this way. 6. Now for the last, very important step. If you don't do this, kiss any chance of phase coherence goodbye. Do this individually for each track: Select the audio clip, right click, and select Elastic Properties. Next to Event Sensitivity, click "Reset." It will give you a warning that it may move markers, etc. It will not screw up what you've done, so just select OK and move on to the next clip. You must do this for each track individually. The reason for this last step is this: If there are zero analysis markers in the track, the edit points will not render correctly, they'll be all over the place, timing-wise. By placing the analysis markers back into the track, you're giving EA something to render against, if that makes sense. Now, usually, with a track like a bass or guitar DI or a vocal, these unused analysis markers would create audible artifacts in anything but XForm mode, but due to the nature of a drumkit, these artifacts seem to be nearly gone. At least to my ears. Now you can render each track. I usually like to Alt-drag the clips to new tracks, and hide/make inactive the edit tracks, so that I can go back and tweak the edit if I need to. Make sure these new tracks are tick-based. I'm not sure how much of an impact this has, but better safe than sorry. Of course, a well-played track edited via slip will almost always sound better, but for those projects where you're under a time crunch, or for prepro tracks...or tracks where the drummer was insanely off, this may be the way to go. It's about as fast as BD, maybe a bit faster if you're locking straight to the grid, and it'd definitely faster than regular old slip-style editing. If I can remember to do it, I'll edit up a clip via slip and EA tomorrow during some down time and post clips. Knowing how finicky EA can be, I fully expect this to work consistently with great results......Right up until the moment you have to do something important with it. Prepro tracks no one will ever hear?Sure, no prob! Actual album production? Lemme just fuck that phase up for you! Sorry for the long post, gents. I've been cooped up with the flu the past few days, so my mind's a'spinning! Hope this helps some of you guys.
I'm gonna have to give this a shot the next day off of work. Cheers!
 
I much prefer Logic in slicing mode because it doesn't separate the regions.

Admittedly it's 2-3 years ago I used Logic regularly, but one of the reasons I changed to PT was that slicing mode made the sound quality of the drums deteriorate. Especially cymbal decays sounded worse when set in slicing mode, even when I didn't move the hits. I loved the rest of flex editing but slicing didn't work as well as BD for me. Might have been a bug.
 
If you're having trouble with BD make sure that your selection start and end land on a 1/4 bar, and check that the bar/beat numbers in BD match whats actually selected.