Drum Editing Questions

[EachHit]

Hi,

a few days ago I started to record my Drumkit so I can now try to learn how to edit Multitrack Drums.
I had a song where it wasn't that difficult cause it was everything straigth 8th notes and a few Fills with 16th.
All my editing was with Elastic Audio.

But now I'v got a Beat where I have problems with Elastic Audio. I edited all Bassdrum notes so they are almost perfect. But through the Elastic Audio some of my Snare Hits don't have enough Sustain cause the Tail gets squashed through the Elastic Audio.
Here's a Screenshot for the better understanding:
http://imgur.com/1hBYnlV

The Second Snare Hit is noticeable shorter. The Bassdrum is also squashed but it's not as noticeable.

Maybe someone can point me out to some good videos on how to Edit Drums the Pro Way. I'm on Pro Tools 10.
I was thinking about replacing the Snare with Trigger with a sampled Snarehit from the Kit but I don't know exactly how to prepare the Fils for use in Trigger2.

Heavy Greetz

 

[bryan_kilco]

Look up some tutorials on slip editing.

 

[JeffTD]

Elastic Audio will destroy your stereo image. Slip Editing doesn't exist in PT. Your best bet is to use tab to transient to slice at every hit, manually quantize regions, and smooth the edits with Beat Detective, or use Beat Detective for the whole thing.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Slip Editing doesn't exist in PT

I was not aware of this. Damn, they should probably get to adding it!

But this is coming from someone who's never used PT, so I'll back out now.

 

[EachHit]

Elastic Audio will destroy your stereo image. Slip Editing doesn't exist in PT. Your best bet is to use tab to transient to slice at every hit, manually quantize regions, and smooth the edits with Beat Detective, or use Beat Detective for the whole thing.

Thanks for the Infos.

Should I do the the Quantizing on the Whole Drumkit or every Track individually.
The Elastic Audio was explained so I thought that would be the way to go.

Do you know any in Depth Tutorials on professional Drum Editing in Pro Tools. As I read a lot in this forums you are the Guy with a lot of experience in this topic.

Heavy Greetz

 

[DavePiatek]

In my opinion, you should learn how to do the slice/quantize method manually before you start working with tools such as EA or Beat Detective. Then you'll really understand what causes the artifacts of the quantizing process.

I actually prefer to edit this way on some projects depending on their complexity. There isn't an automatic tool in any DAW that will magically edit a fast-tempo, poorly played drum part into a passable take. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and dive into manual editing.

 

[EachHit]

In my opinion, you should learn how to do the slice/quantize method manually before you start working with tools such as EA or Beat Detective. Then you'll really understand what causes the artifacts of the quantizing process.

I actually prefer to edit this way on some projects depending on their complexity. There isn't an automatic tool in any DAW that will magically edit a fast-tempo, poorly played drum part into a passable take. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and dive into manual editing.

Hi,

right now I am watching some videos about Drum editing. But most of them I have found are for older version like 7 and 8 of Pro Tools.
So I am not sure if they are up to date.

Does manually mean I should cut out every single hit (e.g. Bassdrum) and align them manually to the Grid. Of course all Drum Tracks at the Same time?

The Drum Tracks I am working on are very simple. Only Tempo 115 with some 16th Note Single Bassdrumhits on the e and a counts.

Heavy Greetz

 

[jeid]

I edit in pro tools. I set my counter to bars|beats instead of mins|seconds. I use Slip mode instead of Grid. I find this easier to move hits about as I don't want all my hits rock solid to the grid.

Yep, tab to every hit (kick, snare etc) and move them to where they should be. Be sure to have the drums setup as a group so you select the whole kit.

 

[EachHit]

I edit in pro tools. I set my counter to bars|beats instead of mins|seconds. I use Slip mode instead of Grid. I find this easier to move hits about as I don't want all my hits rock solid to the grid.

Yep, tab to every hit (kick, snare etc) and move them to where they should be. Be sure to have the drums setup as a group so you select the whole kit.

My Counter is always set to Bars and Beats cause I record almost everything to a click and I'm used to that cause I also programmed drumtracks in Cubase 5 that way.

Right now I am messing around with the Tab to Transient and adjusting all the regions to the grid via nudging. It's a lot of work. Beat Detective seemed to have it done much quicker. But I can not judge if this will sound better.
I think I need a whole lotta practice to get good results in Editing.

How did you learn how to edit easy, fast and accurate in Pro Tools? Do you know some good links?

Heavy Greetz

 

[Mago]

If you also have cubase and want to edit manually, heres the tutorial video Mike (I think it was Mike) did a while ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbdldKjutsI&feature=youtu.be

Editing with Beat Detective in PT is a lot different.
Just google for it, there are plenty of tutorials in how to use it up.

The key is to only take the kick, snare and toms for the analyse part, then cutting all the tracks.
Not in front of PT right now, but I think it's something like

Select the region you want to cut, press the select region button, go to analyse (I think its called like that, or maybe its detect...dunno right now) but only select the kick snare and tom tracks before you analyse the hits.
When it has the markers for the hits, select all the drums tracks (without hitting analyse again) and cut/seperate all tracks.
Then go to the tab for aligning them to the grid (with however tight percentage you want).
Smooth them with crossfades.

Now comes the crucial part:
LISTEN to it, to detect any wrong or off edits, and adjust them manually. Best to do that with nudging,as dragging with the mouse will reset the crossfades to fade ins and fade outs.
You could also to the relisten part before you hit smooth with crossfades, but I like to listen to it with those fades, because they'll only distract me and I have to listen to it more times than if I smooth them right away.
It can very well be that you'll need to adjust the one or other cut, if 2 hits where too close to eachother.

 

[EachHit]

If you also have cubase and want to edit manually, heres the tutorial video Mike (I think it was Mike) did a while ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbdldKjutsI&feature=youtu.be

Editing with Beat Detective in PT is a lot different.
Just google for it, there are plenty of tutorials in how to use it up.

The key is to only take the kick, snare and toms for the analyse part, then cutting all the tracks.
Not in front of PT right now, but I think it's something like

Select the region you want to cut, press the select region button, go to analyse (I think its called like that, or maybe its detect...dunno right now) but only select the kick snare and tom tracks before you analyse the hits.
When it has the markers for the hits, select all the drums tracks (without hitting analyse again) and cut/seperate all tracks.
Then go to the tab for aligning them to the grid (with however tight percentage you want).
Smooth them with crossfades.

Now comes the crucial part:
LISTEN to it, to detect any wrong or off edits, and adjust them manually. Best to do that with nudging,as dragging with the mouse will reset the crossfades to fade ins and fade outs.
You could also to the relisten part before you hit smooth with crossfades, but I like to listen to it with those fades, because they'll only distract me and I have to listen to it more times than if I smooth them right away.
It can very well be that you'll need to adjust the one or other cut, if 2 hits where too close to eachother.

I had a look at the Video. It seems that it was made for Cubase 6 or 7. I only have Cubase 5 as Alternative to Pro Tools 10.
But I think I can do a similar thing in Pro Tools. I have to search some videos for the Beat Detective Method. Maybe I can find some good ones which opens my Mind on how to do it correctly and fast.

I started with manual editing and I have a lot of Pops and Clicks. But this seems to be a problem cause I haven't done any Fades by now.

Fortunately I am a lousy drummer so I think I will have plenty of Tracks to practice.

Heavy Greetz

 

[TRUIE]

FYI slip editing (like on the video) is totally available on Cubase5, and earlier versions too.

 

[EachHit]

FYI slip editing (like on the video) is totally available on Cubase5, and earlier versions too.

Good to know maybe I will try it when I won't get in Pro Tools . But for the beginning I am looking up some Techniques for Pro Tools. I found some Tutorials on youtube from puremix which uses Beat Detetctive and manual editing of the Crossfades.
Hopefully I will figure something out which makes my crappy drums sound more stable and isn't too time consuming.

Heavy Greetz

 

[Klosure]

Beat Detective all the way.

Took me 4 years in studio and working with a good producer to learn some real technique to getting this spot on.



Tips:



1. Group all drums. Only edit the whole group otherwise phase issues etc.

2. Go through and align most of it manually in sections. ie do not bother doing every single hit just the areas of the song that need it, is he playing ahead in the chorus, nudge it so its closer by nudging it forward. Create a new playlist, copy and consolidate, you can always go back.

3. Beat detective in chunks - ie verse one, verse 2, chorus etc. You must do whole bars you cannot do half a bar. So for example start bar 1 and go all the way to 10, not 1.3- 6.2 that will not work. Try not to do too much at once as you need to check over it. Also another tip is when selecting a section, press the B key to cut that section, it stops BD from affecting parts before and after the sections (it can move them out a bit and pisses me of).

Some additional notes. You can analyse the lot ie all the sections of the kit tracks together, there are tutorials about doing just kick snare and toms. But in my experience you can do the lot all at once, chop it up and quantize it. Always go back over it, learn to love the nudge keys (< and >) to move stuff and learn to hear 16ths - once you hear the timing you never question your ears anymore youll be like "ah i hear him go out". If the drummer is really really good, then overheads can be left out (but only the analysis part of BD) - but in most cases I prefer to do the lot. Once you have done it you can copy to a new playlist and consolidate.


Tom Rolls can fuck you over. It helps to get some takes of simple Tom rolls when recording as many drummers dont give a fuck on the toms and just hit madly over the place. Having some takes of simple ones means you can drag them into place. Try to make sure you have some with the same amount of cymbals/overhead noise going on otherwise you cannot copy and paste them in. Sometimes a really bad roll just cannot be fixed. Either copy out another section from elsewhere, or try something else. This of course varies with drummer to drummer.


If you can, get samples of the lot at the end just do it on another playlist. 8 hits of each drum. Can save your arse if you need some samples.

 

[EachHit]

Beat Detective all the way.

Took me 4 years in studio and working with a good producer to learn some real technique to getting this spot on.



Tips:



1. Group all drums. Only edit the whole group otherwise phase issues etc.

2. Go through and align most of it manually in sections. ie do not bother doing every single hit just the areas of the song that need it, is he playing ahead in the chorus, nudge it so its closer by nudging it forward. Create a new playlist, copy and consolidate, you can always go back.

3. Beat detective in chunks - ie verse one, verse 2, chorus etc. You must do whole bars you cannot do half a bar. So for example start bar 1 and go all the way to 10, not 1.3- 6.2 that will not work. Try not to do too much at once as you need to check over it. Also another tip is when selecting a section, press the B key to cut that section, it stops BD from affecting parts before and after the sections (it can move them out a bit and pisses me of).

Some additional notes. You can analyse the lot ie all the sections of the kit tracks together, there are tutorials about doing just kick snare and toms. But in my experience you can do the lot all at once, chop it up and quantize it. Always go back over it, learn to love the nudge keys (< and >) to move stuff and learn to hear 16ths - once you hear the timing you never question your ears anymore youll be like "ah i hear him go out". If the drummer is really really good, then overheads can be left out (but only the analysis part of BD) - but in most cases I prefer to do the lot. Once you have done it you can copy to a new playlist and consolidate.


Tom Rolls can fuck you over. It helps to get some takes of simple Tom rolls when recording as many drummers dont give a fuck on the toms and just hit madly over the place. Having some takes of simple ones means you can drag them into place. Try to make sure you have some with the same amount of cymbals/overhead noise going on otherwise you cannot copy and paste them in. Sometimes a really bad roll just cannot be fixed. Either copy out another section from elsewhere, or try something else. This of course varies with drummer to drummer.


If you can, get samples of the lot at the end just do it on another playlist. 8 hits of each drum. Can save your arse if you need some samples.

The Tip with a new Playlist after messing with BD is very good. Why didn't I get that one on my own.
I think I will try your approach the next days to try it out. I recorded some single hits as I recorded the Drums even on a seperate playlist but I am not sure how to use them for some fucked up parts.
Sometimes I also record some playlists just with the fills when I play the Drums cause often I fuck up the Transition from a Beat to a Fill.

Yesterday I tried the Nudging Tip. It was very slow. It got faster as I used the right Shift key when scrolling the screen.
Maybe somebody is doing a Tutorial on editing a very lousy played drums. I think this would help me alot.


Heavy Greetz

 

[Klosure]

You can change the nudge amounts in Protools. if you are not sure just say and I explain how.


I will try to put a video together when I get time.

 

[EachHit]

You can change the nudge amounts in Protools. if you are not sure just say and I explain how.


I will try to put a video together when I get time.

I was using Nudge Values about 100 Samples first but as I wanted to get a feed on how much I'm off the grid I switched to 5ms.
There are hits where I am off over 50 ms and other hits are almost right on the grid.
Don't know what a good drummer could deliver and how close he is to the grid.

A Video would be very cool. I viewed quiet a few videos about pro tools. But I think I will learn much more from Guys who are also in Metal.

Heavy Greetz