drum tracking advice...

[Arsenu,]

ok so in a few weeks time i'm gonna track drums for my album with a local technician/producer and a session drummer. the material ranges between death metal and hard rock. no blast beats or any extreme drumming...
the micing setup he suggests is:
2 mic for BD
2 for snare
1 hi-hat
1 per tom
2 OH
2 room

so what bothers me about this setup is that i like to hear each cymbal panned differently and i REALLY like that stereo effect created when hitting the hard L and hard R cymbals (e.g. Ashes Of The Wake) and i don't think it's possible when your'e not close micing every cymbal (right?).
i tried to talk to him about close-micing and he said it'll just cause leakage.
i still think it's a good idea and it'll give extra width to the sound...

now i want to get the best raw tracks i can, of course so i need as many opinions about drum tracking, close micing cymbals and how to get the fattest sound i possible

 

[bryan_kilco]

Make sure to get the source sounding good. If that means tuning drums for a few hours, do it. Well worth it. Drums are a pain in the ass.

 

[Revson]

I think that micing setup looks good, but I would add a ride mic. How many cymbals are on the kit you'll be using and how are they arranged? I think kit setup is going to be the biggest factor in deciding how many mics you should use.

 

[AEL89]

Definitely add a mic for ride and crash on the other side of the kit. I'd add a third room mic too so you can have one in mono and a stereo pair. Room mics will help with the stereo image of the kit.

EDIT: If you have loads of cymbals I'd consider 3 overhead mics - a really wide spaced pair (I'd point both mics away from the snare in this setup) and a centre mic slightly higher that will pick up the entire kit.

 

[Arsenu,]

thanks guys!

the kit's setup is presently unknown since it's a session drummer and i haven't asked him yet.
however the studio's got plenty of mic so that won't be a problem.
another option i tought of is placing 4 overheads and pan them:
100 L
about 50 L
about 50 R
100 R

never heard of anyone whos done it but i think it should work, right?
anyway like bryan said i need to get the best source possible and i'm questioning his setup

 

[egan.]

You can get pretty damn wide with a spaced stereo pair of OH's. Just go in and listen with an open mind and add mics as needed. The problem with a ton of OH's is phase can become a bear and you spend (even) more time on placement. What I like to do is start with a regular spaced pair, get those right and at that point assess what's missing.

 

[Harley Barley]

stereo pair of overheads and stereo pair of room mics you should be pretty good.

 

[Arsenu,]

ok but using only stereo room and OH i don't it'll be possible for me to get the cymbals panned the way i want....
(e.g. Ashes of the wake song 1:25 drum fill)

have anyone listened to the example from LoG and knows how can it be done?
because stereo OH and rooms really doesn't seem enough.... maybe i didn't clarify what i'm trying to get

 

[RedDog]

I can see the practical use of spot micing cymbals for added control over width, but you have to be willing to pay your mixing engineer for the added time it will take to address phase issues, automate unneccessary mics up/down, that sort of thing.

as for your LoG "width" preference, you really can't judge width on stereo pair OH's until you've heard them. It's all about placement and you haven't even seen the drummer's kit. It sound like you're trying to find support from us when you just don't want to have an open mind.

 

[Vinny]

Just arrange the cymbals however you want them to be in your stereo image.
Want a splash dead center? Then put the splash directly in between the two mics.
Want a china 100% right? Then put the china to where its almost directly under the right overhead, and then automate the volume of the left overhead during those parts

 

[Arsenu,]

Just arrange the cymbals however you want them to be in your stereo image.
Want a splash dead center? Then put the splash directly in between the two mics.
Want a china 100% right? Then put the china to where its almost directly under the right overhead, and then automate the volume of the left overhead during those parts

alright, i see your point.
i'll try placing a spaced pair of HO and have 2 different crashes right below them at L and R, china dead center and maybe another couple of cymbals between them.
i just didn't think you can really capture a full, wide, stereo image of the cymbals without close-micing.
btw money is not an issue as long as the end-product is the best it can be.
what i'm trying to do here is to get to the drum tracking day, which is the 1st of the tracking days, as prepared as i can.
thanks for everything, i'll probably write again once i talk to the session drummer.....

 

[Vinny]

I don't see your logic. Spaced pair has a very wide stereo image, much larger than XY (which is probably the second-most common for metal.)
Like I said, just arrange the cymbals how you want them to sound in the finished project.
Close miking is really only used for hi-hats/ride/chinas; stuff that can get lost easily in the mix.