Europe..?

[Taliesin]

I heard that our dear Chancellor Mr. Schröder said something along the lines of "The dedication and determinism with which America is leading the investigations concerning the torture incidents clearly shows how well the american democracy works"
I just thought like "Excuse me, but I havent seen any dedication to investigate anything there, and I dont think the american democracy is working well in the first place!"
In fact, I think there is a lot of shit going on wherever american soldiers show up. There have been many reports about this, and they seem to make it a tradition, it was reported in Corea, Vietnam, south America and now Iraq, not to forget Guantanamo.
I find it a shame that none of our politicians would speak up and put some pressure on the US, urge them to accept and respect the Human Rights everywhere, without exceptions.
AI presented their annual report like a week ago and said that not even on their own soil, the Human Rights are garantueed, but that torture is also practiced in the american prisons...
There was an article on one of the most reliable german news pages ( www.tagesschau.de ) that the US have centers of investigation, specialised for terrorists and comparable criminals. Torture seems to be part of the daily work there...
Today, George W. Bush attended the Liberation Fesitvities in Rome, and someone in the crowd carried a US Flag with the Nazi Cross on it.. I couldnt help but think that the man did have a point..

I think it's way past the point that someone says something.. that we dont leave all the work to the Human Rights Organizations but help keeping up the public interest, because that seems to be what is important here.
I just think it's a shame to treat America like one of the western countries as long as they keep these barbaric systems running.

Just to make it clear, Im not saying "Fuck America", Im just pointing out what really bugs me about their administration these days, and I hope people will reply in an apropriate way. Thanks

 

[Taliesin]

Btw, I chose the title because I think the lack of a collectively issued statement is part of this problem Europe has.. it speaks with too many voices. Im wondering where we're heading, because tolerating such behaviour is a political sign, too.
I think it's time to find a basis and direction for Europe, like a collective identity and place to position ourselves, work as a worldwide political weight.

 

[Wandrail]

You mean, compared to Germany's humanitarian background? Sorry, that's a cheap shot, but so is sitting in an insulated european country which we protect (we have more military there than you do) and filling your head with these fanciful notions about what is good and bad in times of war, when your nation hasn't had to even deal with war since Russia crushed you and we rebuilt you - even put ourselves on a limb so that they would reunite your country. It occurs to us that europeans live in a fugue state of long vacations and short work days where you're coddled into a mock-reality where everything is done for you - like a child who lives at home until he's 40 and never really understands what it takes to get along in the world.

So, Europe should become what - a kneejerk reaction against anything of interest to America? This smacks of teenage rebellion, and is exactly why I think we should pull out of europe militarily, just like a parent who has to teach a child about life by allowing them the chance to succeed or fall on their face. Maybe that would make europe a better ally of ours instead of slowly growing into a bunch of anklebiting, self-righteous, bribe taking-from-middle-eastern-dictator hypocrite types.

And I'm not saying 'Fuck Europe', but I'm honestly disgusted with the sanctimonious, naysaying, self-righteous attitudes of europeans and americans as well who lack perspective and reason, and point the finger and shout accusations in total ignorance. Seven idiot soldiers humiliating enemy combatants - terrorists - men who just days prior were trying to kill them - I mean, come on, I'm not saying its right, but I am saying it is just about meaningless in the scope of the operation. Especially considering that Hussein might have cut their arms off, thrown them off a building, engaged in any sort of gruesome, disfiguring torture or execution. Vietnam was also not the bloody immoral slaughter hollywood or John Kerry would have you believe, either. My grandfather died in that war, and a number of people I know have uncles and grandfathers who are veterans of vietnam, and these men remember Kerry and the harm he did to their friends, as he lied and defamed their very honor. Did frustration (borne out of democrats in office cutting their funding and supplies due to political concerns, and cowards in this country siding with the enemy) or just plain idiocy and evil lead some select people to lose control and behave poorly? I don't doubt it, same thing happens every day in high schools, out on the street, in inner cities and suburban neighborhoods - even in Germany.

The sickness of this exaggerated view of our actions is a symptom of an age where everything is under a tv-lens microscope and things so singular and small are made momentous and engulfing - often as suits the purpose and ideas of the people who control the cameras. If we had always behaved like you want us to, we would never have defeated King George, the Nazis, or Imperial Japan. The world would have been such a better place, hmm?

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Wandrail is definitely a wank.

 

[mourningstar]

I heard that our dear Chancellor Mr. Schröder said something along the lines of "The dedication and determinism with which America is leading the investigations concerning the torture incidents clearly shows how well the american democracy works"
I just thought like "Excuse me, but I havent seen any dedication to investigate anything there, and I dont think the american democracy is working well in the first place!"

yeah, wish that sentence was ironic.

You mean, compared to Germany's humanitarian background? Sorry, that's a cheap shot, but so is sitting in an insulated european country which we protect (we have more military there than you do) and filling your head with these fanciful notions about what is good and bad in times of war, when your nation hasn't had to even deal with war since Russia crushed you and we rebuilt you - even put ourselves on a limb so that they would reunite your country. It occurs to us that europeans live in a fugue state of long vacations and short work days where you're coddled into a mock-reality where everything is done for you - like a child who lives at home until he's 40 and never really understands what it takes to get along in the world.

oh, c'mon. just one thing: not being involved in any and every war on this planet doesn't mean that one isn't allowed to point out what's a wrong behaviour.
another thing: having your military here in our country since when we lost ww2 doesn't mean protection in the least, since the attacks we might get nowadays are mainly caused by some mister berlusconi being intimate friends with bush.

i'm not reading your post any further, i'm sorry.

 

[Voice of God]

Vietnam was also not the bloody immoral slaughter hollywood or John Kerry would have you believe, either. My grandfather died in that war, and a number of people I know have uncles and grandfathers who are veterans of vietnam... blah blah

Just how does your grandfather's or any other soldier's death make Vietnam-war a less immoral slaughter?

 

[Taliesin]

Sorry, that's a cheap shot, but so is sitting in an insulated european country which we protect (we have more military there than you do) and filling your head with these fanciful notions about what is good and bad in times of war, when your nation hasn't had to even deal with war since Russia crushed you and we rebuilt you

Last time I checked, we were a lot closer to the middle East than you are. In fact, I think you are the insulated ones, both geographically and historically. We've had 2 World Wars going on here in the past century, while you havent experienced War on your own soil for like 150 years.
Also, Russia didnt crush us, if you refere to the damage done to german cities, that was mostly done by british and american airforce, if you refere to the military defeat, well, the Alliance came from practically everywhere, didnt they? You helped rebuilding, that's right, throwing food on Berlin and helping us out with industrial pacts such as the Marshall plan gave us quite a boost there, but saying that you rebuilt us.. that sounds as if we sat back as you worked your asses off.. which I dont think was the case.

It occurs to us that europeans live in a fugue state of long vacations and short work days where you're coddled into a mock-reality where everything is done for you - like a child who lives at home until he's 40 and never really understands what it takes to get along in the world.

Now that's funny.. last time I checked, you had one friend left at the UN, since Spain gave Aznar the finger. So.. the World is wrong and you are right? Now THAT is teenage thinking.
Go right ahead and pull out of Europe. What do you think was gonna happen? What do you think you protect us from?

Seven idiot soldiers humiliating enemy combatants - terrorists - men who just days prior were trying to kill them - I mean, come on, I'm not saying its right, but I am saying it is just about meaningless in the scope of the operation.

How do you know that they were Terrorists? I hear US Soldiers randomly picked up people and locked them away for questioning, how do you know these werent just regular people? Besides, the Geneva Convention forbids any sort of Torture, just as your common sense should. And as it seems, the clearance for that goes right up to the Pentagon, so no, it's not meaningless in the scope of the operation.

And out of curiosity, you claim to be a Christian. Now, what do you think would Jesus say to that? Would you say like "Come on, I'm not saying its right, but I am saying it is just about meaningless in the scope of the operation!" to him? Or wouldnt that feel a little wrong?

Especially considering that Hussein might have cut their arms off, thrown them off a building, engaged in any sort of gruesome, disfiguring torture or execution.

And does that make it less wrong? You make it sound so.


With all that said, my main point was something else. My point was that I think it all the shit going on in your name, be it the torture in Iraq (which we surely have different views on), Guantanamo or basic human right violations that AI and other Organizations warn about, I feel hypocritical to act as if nothing happened. And unlike you, I seem to able to differentiate, I sure am grateful towards what you did to us after WW2, I do see the advantages of your military presence, but I also see the disadvantages and the so called "unintended consequences". I cant help but feeling the urge to speak up, and I cant see where that makes me an "anklebiting and self-righteous" hypocrite. In fact, I think it's everyone's responsibility and Id appreciate if you also perceive the fact that we're grateful towards the good you do, but that doesnt give you permission to walk away with what you do there. Thanks for your time

 

[Taliesin]

and once again the debate isnt finished... oh well

 

[Vadim]

Wandrail

Right on.
Some people in Europe still don't understand that if no America, Russians will hapilly march on to wash their boots in Atlantic, just for fun.

Somebody pissed on a thug, big deal. Better to shot them all down in a battle.

 

[Vadim]

having your military here in our country since when we lost ww2 doesn't mean protection in the least, since the attacks we might get nowadays are mainly caused by some mister berlusconi being intimate friends with bush

Yeah sure... We all Hippies now, aren't we...
It's just laughable...
If U.S. out of Europe, Finland will be a part of Russia in 5 years.

 

[Majesty]

Russia can´t even take care of Chechnia how the hell could they take Finland?

 

[Vadim]

In some sense Chechnya is a place to play. If there's no place to play outside.

 

[DE]

Vadim, what are you on about?

 

[lord667]

filling your head with these fanciful notions about what is good and bad in times of war,

I'm sorry Wandrail, normally you make a lot of sense, but in no way is "don't torture your prisoners" a fanciful notion.

when your nation hasn't had to even deal with war since Russia crushed you and we rebuilt you - even put ourselves on a limb so that they would reunite your country. It occurs to us that europeans live in a fugue state of long vacations and short work days where you're coddled into a mock-reality where everything is done for you - like a child who lives at home until he's 40 and never really understands what it takes to get along in the world.

That's very easy for you to say, American. Your entire continent wasn't blown to the very gates of Hell not once but twice within the last 100 years.

Your country's idea of a war is to send a gang of hired killers halfway round the world, and watch their progress on TV. European and Asian nations, on the other hand, have actually suffered war's worst consequences. We understand war very fucking well, which is why we'd rather not have one, thanks.

You call us teenage rebels below, well that's a line of bullshit if ever I've heard one. I'd say a closer analogy is someone, who used to be quite aggressive, who's just got out of hospital having been beaten to the brink of death, and who has decided, based on the number of scars and metal pins he's now wearing, that violence is maybe something he should be trying to avoid from now on. But we can't, you see, because our mate America still thinks he's Bruce Lee and keeps trying to drag us to the local fleapit to help him pick a fight. One day, perhaps, America will get his fucking legs broken when he picks the wrong fight with the wrong person, and then maybe he'll finally understand our sanctimonious European viewpoint.

I am saying it is just about meaningless in the scope of the operation.

No it isn't, Wandrail. Let's wait until America gets invaded, you've tried to defend your country, and you've wound up smeared with shit and stood naked in front of a hungry Alsatian with your pecker blowing in the wind like a little chew toy. Then let's see what you think about the Geneva Convention, aye?

Especially considering that Hussein might have cut their arms off, thrown them off a building, engaged in any sort of gruesome, disfiguring torture or execution.

That means exactly jack shit and you know it.

Vietnam was also not the bloody immoral slaughter hollywood or John Kerry would have you believe, either. My grandfather died in that war, and a number of people I know have uncles and grandfathers who are veterans of vietnam, and these men remember Kerry and the harm he did to their friends, as he lied and defamed their very honor. Did frustration (borne out of democrats in office cutting their funding and supplies due to political concerns, and cowards in this country siding with the enemy) or just plain idiocy and evil lead some select people to lose control and behave poorly? I don't doubt it, same thing happens every day in high schools, out on the street, in inner cities and suburban neighborhoods - even in Germany.

Vietnam I must admit was a rather different kettle of fish to Iraq. To wit: The spread of communism might actually have been a threat to America and Europe. Iraq never was and never would have been.

The sickness of this exaggerated view of our actions is a symptom of an age where everything is under a tv-lens microscope and things so singular and small are made momentous and engulfing - often as suits the purpose and ideas of the people who control the cameras. If we had always behaved like you want us to, we would never have defeated King George, the Nazis, or Imperial Japan. The world would have been such a better place, hmm?

Comparing the Gulf Walkover to the War of Independence or World War 2 is beyond laughable. See, King George was oppressing America; Saddam Hussein wasn't. Adolf Hitler probably would have tried to invade America eventually; Saddam Hussein wouldn't. Imperial Japan made unprovoked attacks on American troops outside their territory; Iraq didn't.

 

[Vadim]

Vadim, what are you on about?

I'm about
that you can thank U.S. that Russian is not your second language.

 

[Majesty]

I'm about
that you can thank U.S. that Russian is not your second language.

Yes and now we can thank US for having english as second language

 

[mourningstar]

I'm about
that you can thank U.S. that Russian is not your second language.

who are you, an ex american spy with alzheimer?
and chill out man, one thing is to discuss, another is to make a fool of yourself.

 

[Vadim]

Yes and now we can thank US for having english as second language

Better option, isn't it ?

 

[Vadim]

mourningstar

I don't see any point in personal crap talking.
My health is fine.

Oh you laugh. Good.
You laugh louder than Deutsche Demokratische Republik kinder-scouts.

 

[Voice of God]

If U.S. out of Europe, Finland will be a part of Russia in 5 years.

Ehhh?
Finland is not a NATO member and there's no US troops here.
And US was allied with the soviets during the war so US also did nothing to help finland after -41. Besides, it doesn't matter shit now, it was 60 years ago.