Fake Emotional Music

[YaYo]

im too tired, so maybe this wont come out right. but.....

i was just thinking about all the different ways emotion can be expressed in music. Like youve got your celine dions who somehow think that a heartbroken person is able to sing with all their heart (i mean really, would anyone sing like those people if they were really sad?). And then you have a lot of singers who create emotion, its more like they are telling a story of someone who is sad or happy or whatever. And then you have the people who just sound like they are really experiencing the emotions that they are expressing.

So far ive only been talking about singing, but the same can be said about all instruments as well, its just not as obvious.

Anyway, i think mikaels vocals change between 3rd person and 1st person emotion. Lines such as "am i like them? those who mourn and turn away..... etc" sound truly emotional. But other lines on the story albums (MAYH/SL) don't sound really like he himself is experiencing the emotions. Now this observation is probably pretty obvious since MAYH/SL are stories, and not really about mikael. But does everyone agree/disagree?

all right thats enough, now discuss! (i think theres a lot more to discuss on the subject than i've introduced, so don't be afraid to bring up anything related)


(and now i get to that point where i wonder if i made sense?)

 

[tenebrose]

I don't know whether to agree or not...

Now, I personally write poetry... and when something is very emotional and very close, personally, I tend to write about it in third person. I pick something, be it a person, be it a thing, and give anthropomorphise it, so to speak, be it a window, reflecting broken rays of sun, or a little girl with a flower. I feel that if I use myself in any of my texts, then it becomes false, and I find myself reacting the same way towards other people's lyrics...
Sort of... can you truely be feeling that if you can't express it in a better way than that? Or, if that's truely how you feel, wouldn't you be distancing yourself towards it, so you'd write about it differently?

 

[MetalManCPA]

I personally find more emotion from the third person point of view. Part of me has been soured by rap lyrics - all this whining and crying about how tough "my" life has been. I tend to look at first person lyrics as maybe interesting, because it personlises the singer/group, but I'm not the kind in real life to pry into other peoples lives. I like good stories - movies, etc. So to me, if the singer is belting out a tune with a "story", I find more in that.

 

[Russell]

Personally I find the music has conveys far more emotion than the lyrics. While they can enhance the music's, for me it has a far greater effect. I mean you can easily have "happy" songs with sad lyrics, but I've never found a song which is depressing musicallybut made happy by the lyrics....

Now I wonder did I make any sense? Writing stoopid reviews makes me go all tautological

 

[MacMoney]

I usually find the playing itself the most emotional part in music.

But yes, I agree with the others. Lyrics in third person seem to be more touching. I don't know why that is but it just is that way.

 

[lumen]

For me, music has more emotional power than lyrics. But certain lyrics can really move me, and it's not whether they're in first or third person that matters, but what they're about.

 

[The Death]

I think that when an artist expresses his emotions (whether through lyrics or through music), you can see that the result is better, deeper. When you try to write a sad poem because your goal is to write a sad poem - you are likely to make a poem less good than a peom you'd write with a different goal: expressing your sadness.

Now, that is the creating part. A different part in music is how YOU handle it. Some music and lyrics might evoke emotions from your side - sadness, happyness, anger, etc. That depends on how you relate to the lyrics and music.

Now, the connection between the two parts is that as the creation is better (a thing, IMO, is driven from expressing true emotions), you'll relate to it stronger. It will evoke stronger feelings from your side.

I can point at some peaks. Sometimes those peaks are the clear vocals. Sometimes those are very sad musical parts. But remember - there is no peak if there is no mountain. The peak cannot stand for it's own. That is why i like to look at songs as a whole - i cannot isolate one part of a song and expect to have the same evocation of emotions as i have in this part if i listen to the entire song.

Uhhh, this is kinda messed up. Hope you got my point.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by The Death
I think that when an artist expresses his emotions (whether through lyrics or through music), you can see that the result is better, deeper. When you try to write a sad poem because your goal is to write a sad poem - you are likely to make a poem less good than a peom you'd write with a different goal: expressing your sadness.

Now, that is the creating part. A different part in music is how YOU handle it. Some music and lyrics might evoke emotions from your side - sadness, happyness, anger, etc. That depends on how you relate to the lyrics and music.

Now, the connection between the two parts is that as the creation is better (a thing, IMO, is driven from expressing true emotions), you'll relate to it stronger. It will evoke stronger feelings from your side.

I can point at some peaks. Sometimes those peaks are the clear vocals. Sometimes those are very sad musical parts. But remember - there is no peak if there is no mountain. The peak cannot stand for it's own. That is why i like to look at songs as a whole - i cannot isolate one part of a song and expect to have the same evocation of emotions as i have in this part if i listen to the entire song.

Uhhh, this is kinda messed up. Hope you got my point.

The reason I think the 3rd person is more emotional is because it is MORE creative - in that you are not constrained by real life experiences. You can use real life experiences as a catipult - but you are free to add as much more emotion as necessary. When it's in the 1st person, the story is confined within the box of reality [IMO]

 

[YaYo]

interesting replies as usual,
I wasnt really concerned with the emotional effect music has on you personally, i was talking about hearing the emotion that the musician is writing/singing with. Slightly different angle. Tenebrose's reply was very good.

So the question MetalmanCpa, when you listen to your 3rd person songs and say they are 'more emotional' do u think that the vocalists are singing with their true emotions (we'll talk in terms of Opeth's 3rd person songs.... ), or are they created emotions.

Sure 3rd person creates just as much emotion in me as 1st person does (because to me none of mikaels songs are about 'me', hence none are 1st person to 'me'), but a story can never be as emotional as reality (ie, reading about losing a loved one will never be as sad as actually losing a loved one), so given that do u think the 3rd person songs are more emotional for the singer or not?

And then do u think the commercial singers out there sing with any true emotion at all?

 

[Misanthrope]

Emotional Music can be dangerous if you dont mean it. When i write a sad song ( music and lyrics both ) i try only to write about things that i feel cause i do not want to sound fake, thats is why my songs end up being ironic like from sad gothlike riffs to mellow but happier jazz improvisation to full speed and grind attacks with melancolic guitars nonetheless, only to end out with weird tense riffs filled with oddities ( for a melodic metal band ) like 9ths Diminished 5ths, major and even minor seconds, etc. My music might not be good techicaly or something and it might not be apealing to everyone but its always about real emotions.

I think this is why i dont really buy things like Linkin Park and the whinner ( Staind ) or pop because it doesnt sounds too real, maybe is prefabricated maybe its composed by someone else, maybe exesive studio post processing has something to do with it but it does not sounds too real to me.

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by Misanthrope
Emotional Music can be dangerous if you dont mean it. When i write a sad song ( music and lyrics both ) i try only to write about things that i feel cause i do not want to sound fake, thats is why my songs end up being ironic like from sad gothlike riffs to mellow but happier jazz improvisation to full speed and grind attacks with melancolic guitars nonetheless, only to end out with weird tense riffs filled with oddities ( for a melodic metal band ) like 9ths Diminished 5ths, major and even minor seconds, etc. My music might not be good techicaly or something and it might not be apealing to everyone but its always about real emotions.

I think this is why i dont really buy things like Linkin Park and the whinner ( Staind ) or pop because it doesnt sounds too real, maybe is prefabricated maybe its composed by someone else, maybe exesive studio post processing has something to do with it but it does not sounds too real to me.

I said above that I feel the 3rd person lyrical emotions are stronger, but you bring up a point about a band like Linkin Park. I caution myself in judging these mainstream acts, because I always wonder how true they are to their music with all the $$ of mainstream success floating around.

Bands like Opeth are real (at least to me). For some reason, in this stinking music industry, I believe the mainstream bands are manufactured (even subliminally just by their surroundings). I mean, if you're a nobody, and less than a year later, you're at all these "glamorous" events, where the money flows, how can that not effect your music? I always enjoy the small shows, because I "feel" a different emotion - not guided by the crowds reaction, or just the plain enormity of sitting with 17,000 people. I saw Enslaved a month ago, and there was not more than 100 people there - intimate, and the music seemd true. That being said, I guess I should change my thought a little, and say no matter if 1st or 3rd person, it really depends on the band playing the music. There are exceptions (like I said before - Oh Father by Madonna gets me every time), but for the most part, I feel the most emotion out of the less popular bands.

 

[D Mullholand]

Beautiful thread, YaYoGakk !

I find emotions that were inserted into music by the artist, or were an impulse for creation, don't matter that much to me. But there may be some little detail in the music, which can be unrelated to the main "symptoms" of that supposed emotion (I mean just a random musical or lyrical twist that was probably not intended by the artist to even be there, and by itself is not particularly "sad" or "jolly"), and this detail all of a sudden connects with me, and creates a new emotion. The strongest emotions mostly come to me when the music creates images - or a story, which has a flow, a sequence of emotional colours. "Simple" emotions in music don't affect me that much anymore I'm afraid; there has to be some emotional complexity and/or ambivalence, something hidden underneath the surface, that will stimulate your mind to find new paths through this music.

We cannot separate music and lyrics - statements like "music means more than the lyrics" from metal listeners come mostly from the fact that in most metal (even the musically good bands) lyrics are weak and not evocative at all; or in the case of growled vocals, they are hard to decipher and separate themselves from the music. The mind pushes them to the background and concentrates only on music - and this turns into a habit after a while.

I believe that sayings like "I love this music and the artist's emotions because I once felt the same and I know this feeling" tend to reduce the role of music to simple functionality - the music is put on to bring back a memory of a past emotion. I prefer music that creates new, complex emotions that cannot be easily explaied or reduced to simple "soul mate" relations.

About Celine Dion and similar "sentimental" poop-singers: their music is manufactured by song engineers relying on decades of experience - they know what established sounds/chords/melodies provoke "emotional" responses in the hearts of joes, and construct the songs using these formulas; but they are always neatly tied-up and balanced (like there's always an "uplifting" bridge before the last chorus of a "sad" song; and in the end it modulates a tone upwards, so that the joes can sigh and "feel better") - and become just a mechanical simulation of an emotional ride.

D Mullholand

 

[YaYo]

cool reply as always from you D Mullholand!

But there may be some little detail in the music, which can be unrelated to the main "symptoms" of that supposed emotion (I mean just a random musical or lyrical twist that was probably not intended by the artist to even be there, and by itself is not particularly "sad" or "jolly"), and this detail all of a sudden connects with me, and creates a new emotion.

I find this too, the music that most often has an effect on me usually i cant really tell if the artist intended it this way (because its usually just little things that get me going). But thats the music side of things, with vocals im quite the opposite.
Songs like "Radiohead - Exit Music (For a Film)"...
simple guitar work, but the singing is just so emotional it gets me every time.. (and no "feel better" section! hehe) And the bits that get me most emotional (im talking singing here) are the bits when i can hear the emotion that the singer is singing with.

All these things are only a small part of what i love in music, and there needs to be a lot more than just an emotional singer, but it still is one thing that gets me.

and thats why i dont get into most commercial music, theres usually one focus and thats it (vocals) and everything else is just a backdrop and not emotional or interesting in itself.


and misanthrope, your music sounds like it would be very interesting, you should record and upload and post it!!