First Greece, Portugal and Spain, next is Italy, Ireland and Belgium?

[Trevoire520]

Punished for what? Most of the people who caused the recession didn't do anything illegal. They took advantage of gaps in our regulations.

Saying "no one told me not to do it" isn't justification for causing a recession.

Those working in high level banking that can fuck up economies when they get it wrong should have a half decent understanding of how their decisions effect the world around them. And should act accordingly. Not make major screwups that cause poverty around the world and then get paid a several million pound bonus'!

 

[John_C]

Saying "no one told me not to do it" isn't justification for causing a recession.

Those working in high level banking that can fuck up economies when they get it wrong should have a half decent understanding of how their decisions effect the world around them. And should act accordingly. Not make major screwups that cause poverty around the world and then get paid a several million pound bonus'!

This

when (democratic) governments screw up, they lose the next election and are out of power
when corporations screw up, they get bailed out, wounds are patched, business goes on as before.

I believe that breaking the power of the multination corporations is one of the biggest challenges we currently face in human society.

 

[TheDriller]

Punished for what? Most of the people who caused the recession didn't do anything illegal. They took advantage of gaps in our regulations.

so is it a case that any devious, malicious or harmful act is totally acceptable as long as there are no _specific_ laws against it?

If I find a loop-hole in law that just happens to not cover the case of setting off a suitcase-nuke in a large city, does that make the act itself ok? :Smokin:

 

[Mutant]

[edit] OK i overreacted...

I just hate commies... sue me

 

[angryoldsoundguy]

so is it a case that any devious, malicious or harmful act is totally acceptable as long as there are no _specific_ laws against it?

If I find a loop-hole in law that just happens to not cover the case of setting off a suitcase-nuke in a large city, does that make the act itself ok? :Smokin:

From what I have observed, most people on this board would argue that there is at some point subjectivity in regards to ethics, though I think they would all agree that mass murder is wrong, unless you are talking about one of the ghost towns in China and even then, extreme property damage (when it isn't your property) is wrong as well, regardless of what the law stipulates.

 

[kvoid]

Man, knowing how terrible large companies are (see: Food Inc/the Future of Food) and learning more about the central banks and how corrupt governments are, it sure does make it hard for me as a person that would love to be a father feel comfortable bringing another life into this world...

I'll admit, I'm ignorant. I know something is up and I know everyone is screwing each other over, I just don't know the specifics of all of it. So maybe I'm not completely ignorant. Either way, forgive me if I'm off the mark.

My question for you guys is what kind of affect would having most of our US companies manufacturing/working/producing/etc in the US again? I know this is all a pipe dream, but for instance, Apple making everything in the US? Would that help out our debt and what not?

Additionally, history just points to major empires crashing after a period of time. The US is far overdue. What do you guys foresee happening in the future when things do fall down? Do you think it will? How soon?

I'm greatly disappointed that we have not learned from history. I'm even more disappointed in mankind's unbelievable lust for power and wealth. Even if our government started over and everyone in power at the start had good intentions, someone will get in there and manipulate, lie, cheat, etc., for their own gain often because of the ignorance of a well intentioned person.

We're truly living in a sad world.

I'm sure you're not really ignorant and you seem like a good guy. No one knows the specifics of this shit but the guys who were balls deep in the shenanigans. Least of all those who claim that they understand where it all went wrong.

I liked the questions you posed so I'll take the liberty to answer them as I see things:

1) No, I don't see mass manufacturing of consumer devices coming back to America anytime soon. There's a reason those jobs left in the first place. And no I don't think bringing them back will do a thing for US debt.

2) I don't really see the US as far overdue for a crash but we have seen exponential growth in the past few decades so the "timeline" of events when something is supposed to keel over and bust it's nose is seriously compressed. If something cataclysmic was to hit the economy and government of the United States of America, that would easily be EVERYONE's worst nightmare. The global economy is in effect a big circle jerk, or better yet, an assfucking choo choo train. If the world's number one market for everything was to suddenly go flat broke and stop buying everything, nothing anyone makes or sells would be worth a fuck. There would be chaos, lawlessness, hunger, strife, the world over. Needless to say all of America's allies that have been bankrolling it would be seriously pissed that they're never getting their money back. And America's supposed "competitors" (read: China) who are even higher up in that handout chain, well, take a wild guess how they would feel. Therefore the idea of the greenback getting devalued to what it really is (fancy TP) is an idea that is very difficult to entertain for many. Myself included (all my meager savings are in USD, and the Euro is much the same).

3) The world has not really changed intrinsically. Capitalism is arguably the fairest system ever. You know who is the problem in my opinion? We are. Our value systems are flawed. I've known quite a few people that made some nice money in their life and endeavors and they kept on going for more. After the first supercar, beach house and yacht, there's little else to pursue. The women give it up for practically nothing at that point. The only thing that drives those people IME is numbers, pure profit. It's like a videogame. Gotta score more, you don't want to be the guy that got a headshot and a teabagging, but the one on top of the kill count. Of course then you realize that money is not real, and the best thing to do is enjoy your time on earth and avoid shit that will frustrate you. But most of those successful folks don't think that way. They're too busy watching their "scores"...

 

[ThatGuitarGuy]

Thanks for answering and your kind words.

It honestly seems like if there was a significant war, specifically on American soil right now, the whole world would pretty much go into a major shock. They'll say things will get better economically because we're spending money on the war, but really, we don't have the money for that. The next world war that happens will easily be the worst thing that we have ever seen because it affects way more. I see a terrible domino scenario occurring.

As for the wealth game, you're right. Unfortunately, most people live beyond their means, especially those that are filthy rich. I wouldn't mind having enough that allows me to do what I need to do to live, have a family and provide for them as any good husband should be able to do. I however wouldn't want my job to overwhelm my life nor would I want money to have that much control over my life on either the spectrum of debt OR wealth.

It's too easy to have tons of money and you keep fighting for more only to lose your life fighting after paper and something that is nothing more than an idea.

I don't know what to do to make a difference in all of this. It's too big.

 

[Behind]

Next is going to be the whole World... We haven't seen the worst of the financial crisis. The worst is yet to come and there will be no possible financial rescue since the ones to rescue are going to be the governements.

See you in WW3 guys



EDIT: Aaron Smith already posted the link to the video. Anyway, here is it again for those who missed it.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Punished for what? Most of the people who caused the recession didn't do anything illegal. They took advantage of gaps in our regulations.

For those of you who are saying this ^^^ is wrong: I agree with you, it's totally fucked up. But it's legal. So you can't punish them. Capitalism rewards greed. There's nothing you can do about it except maybe you can protest or if you don't want to be futile you could move out of the country.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Also, by the way, GREECE IS THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

Again. Hella tight.

 

[TheSlanderer]

GREECE IS THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

NOW WE KILL YOU!

 

[Mutant]

So Leon what do you want now exactly ?

What in your opinion is the best way out of this shit ?

 

[Behind]

we greeks want a government FOR THE GREEKS,not for the jews,turks,skopians,americans etc.

we have to be careful here since that's the main argument of conservative parties and, in a more radical way, dictatorships

This scares me... History has teached us how financial reasons lend to war and this is repeating itself: Crisis->Conservative parties arise->People blame other people->War

Solutions? Fuck the credit system. It's the cancer of the modern world... don't let it spread all over the globe and cut it right now.

 

[midget donkeys]

we have to be careful here since that's the main argument of conservative parties and, in a more radical way, dictatorships

This scares me... History has teached us how financial reasons lend to war and this is repeating itself: Crisis->Conservative parties arise->People blame other people->War

This is what I am afraid of. Finical crisis in the western world will lead to isolationism, ultra-national politics and violence toward ethnic/social groups different than one’s self.

 

[Leon--]

the solution for me must NOT be violent.people will not win their rights with violence.they must decide all together(At least a big number of people in each country) not to pay the bankers who are behind everything.
i remember iceland demanded to vote for the IMF,and the people decided to THROW THEM OUT!but they don't let greeks to choose what they want because they want our land.
the trick is simple,they give massive loans in greece and with that trick they will try to convience people that greece is responsible for a new crisis so the will make the people"anti-hellenic",and the result will be that no one will support greeks when crisis for our land begins.
i mean that if greece falls,then the big european countries like germany france england will make money from this,but the small ones will have even bigger problems too.

 

[Math]

Well, wasn't planning to make my first post here, but hey, I need to defend my country!

I'm a Belgian, and indeed, our country is fucked up. But not economy-wise. The ratings that we are given are so low because of the political crisis, which may not be confused with an economical crisis. We are currently run by an resigning-government, which has enough power to keep the land from falling in chaos. With an agreement they can vote more important laws. Right now they are debating about the retirement-system, which seems big to me at least. Our economy is not yet badly hurt by this political crisis. This may happen in the future, but I'm actually confident that this will not lead us to a situation à la Iceland.
Which leads me to my next point. Wouldn't it be fair to include Iceland in this discussion? This country actually went bankrupt, and got money from other countries, which now virtually 'own' the country. This was indeed the result of the economical crisis, but it is also the most recent example of a country without money.

I agree with the Greek people in that they need a government that supports THEM, and not their selves. Like Leon said, much has gone horribly wrong in Greece. But may I remind you people that they are in fact the birthplace of democracy? The people need to stand up, but not to overthrow the government. Instead, they need to peacefully agree to make changes to the manner of ruling. They can do it. Dictatorship is a part of the Greek history. The city-states were all ruled by a king or warlord. And they were all ruled by religion. This doesn't need to return, but there should be some way to control the ones who make the decisions. In ancient Rome, there were 2 consuls, just to make sure that one could watch over the other to prevent abuse of power. This system wasn't perfect, and has been discarded, but proved many times to be very effective too.
On a more personal note, why do the Greeks have to use green lasers to annoy journalists? I hate watching tv and suddenly seeing a bang of green light, it just reminds me of Harry Potter. Journalists can control the international opinion about a country, and now the people are just showing themselves as anarchists.

 

[El_Gato]

In Spain, all the frauds in taxes would be enough to solve the problems in the public accounts.

In Greece, the taxes' increase is the same for everybody in this case. Rich and poor people will pay the same. On the contrary, Obama is saying now he we'll raise the taxes to the wealthy people only. Yes, this will piss off the ones who pay their campaigns but looks like he's got the balls.

In fact, the UN is saying the measures taken in Greece could be against human rights.

Damn, EU is managing to be more conservative than the US now.

@Math, don't worry too much, it happened the same at the begining of the protests here in Spain but finally, common sense prevailed and now, 85% of the people agree with the protesters. People realized things have to change and we're achieving more and more. Little things but, at least, we're in progress. Now we have to keep pressuring.

 

[Leon--]

I agree with the Greek people in that they need a government that supports THEM, and not their selves. Like Leon said, much has gone horribly wrong in Greece. But may I remind you people that they are in fact the birthplace of democracy? The people need to stand up, but not to overthrow the government. Instead, they need to peacefully agree to make changes to the manner of ruling. They can do it. Dictatorship is a part of the Greek history. The city-states were all ruled by a king or warlord. And they were all ruled by religion. This doesn't need to return, but there should be some way to control the ones who make the decisions. In ancient Rome, there were 2 consuls, just to make sure that one could watch over the other to prevent abuse of power. This system wasn't perfect, and has been discarded, but proved many times to be very effective too.
On a more personal note, why do the Greeks have to use green lasers to annoy journalists? I hate watching tv and suddenly seeing a bang of green light, it just reminds me of Harry Potter. Journalists can control the international opinion about a country, and now the people are just showing themselves as anarchists.

hello man
first of all democracy has nothing to do with the "modern democracy" that we have in nowdays.
first fact:democracy in greece was democracy,there was NO left right or central political parties,it was 100% democracy.
there were numerous city-states that had democracy while others had monarchy or tyranny or aristocracy,for example athens had democracy.
Ancient rome copied all greek politics and religion along with the system that you mentioned.
2 months ago some people gathered in a political speech of a minister from the government and they were pointing at his eyes with green lasers.
then the minister commanded the cops and the kicked everyones ass.
that's why they are using the green laser.
about the anarchist thing im sorry to say that they are not civilians
cops with "anarchists" talking together that broke a bank before..

pictures
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.121820011177355.19266.121818907844132

they are talking with an "anarchist" and then he just leaves.
http://prezatv.blogspot.com/2011/07/blog-post_2797.html
and here's the ugly truth of what they are doing to the people that try to protest with peace
http://alexiptwto.blogspot.com/2011/06/blog-post_4228.html

plus many more..
in athens we even had more than half a million people protesting peacefully.
because i see the worldwide news everyday,they didn't mention anything about the peaceful protests that lasted for 24 days!BBC CNN SKYNEWS blablabla.
BUT when the riots begun....it was the first subject!
that's why i don't blame the spanish people that said"be quiet,do not wake up the greeks" with irony,because the majority of the people percieve their "reality" for the television.
I respect the police and i believe it's an important role in every nation and there are great greek police officers.
but this thing......isn't good at all.

 

[Math]

hello man
first of all democracy has nothing to do with the "modern democracy" that we have in nowdays.
first fact:democracy in greece was democracy,there was NO left right or central political parties,it was 100% democracy.
there were numerous city-states that had democracy while others had monarchy or tyranny or aristocracy,for example athens had democracy.
Ancient rome copied all greek politics and religion along with the system that you mentioned.
2 months ago some people gathered in a political speech of a minister from the government and they were pointing at his eyes with green lasers.
then the minister commanded the cops and the kicked everyones ass.
that's why they are using the green laser.
about the anarchist thing im sorry to say that they are not civilians
cops with "anarchists" talking together that broke a bank before..

I know there are different kinds of democracy, but Greece was the birthplace of the general term. And I have to say you are wrong. Democracy is where everybody can voice his opinion, but if I recall, in ancient democracy women were not allowed to speak up etc., and you know as well as I do that it is in the nature of men to form groups of people with the same point of view. I strongly believe that there would have been a clear difference between the votes of the normal men, and the aristocracy.
The green laser thing I understand, I just wanted to point out it's annoyance.

And to give you a heads up, the peaceful protest was a headliner in Belgian news, and I've followed the Greek situation superficially (I'm 16, don't expect me to be a politics-addict) since then.

 

[SocialNumb]

I think we should spray the entire worlds population with a chemical that would make all humans incapable of successfully producing offspring so we can end this madness already.