? for the pros concerning the dos and don'ts for guitar tones.

[ahjteam]

If being really dead honest, nobody really gives a shit about guitars except the musicians/engineers/producers, which is about 1% of the listeners, except maybe 2-5% on the metalscene. Just don't obstruct the vocals and bass, and you're good to go.

The great majority of the regular people who listen to the music only listen to the vocals, and everybody who likes to dance has atleast some sort of rhythm sense, so thats why if the regular people can't hear the vocals or the beat clearly, they usually think the the song/mix sucks. That is why the rap and rnb music is really "hot" today; it's almost only about the vocals and the beat.

 

[XnaySaturo]

If being really dead honest, nobody really gives a shit about guitars except the musicians/engineers/producers, which is about 1% of the listeners, except maybe 2-5% on the metalscene. Just don't obstruct the vocals and bass, and you're good to go.

The great majority of the regular people who listen to the music only listen to the vocals, and everybody who likes to dance has atleast some sort of rhythm sense, so thats why if the regular people can't hear the vocals or the beat clearly, they usually think the the song/mix sucks. That is why the rap and rnb music is really "hot" today; it's almost only about the vocals and the beat.

True, but when you think about it, in the metal scene, almost everyone at least dabbles in playing guitar or another instrument. I'm pretty sure it's the genre that has the largest percentage of the audience that cares about the production and the tones.

 

[Nauru]

True, but when you think about it, in the metal scene, almost everyone at least dabbles in playing guitar or another instrument. I'm pretty sure it's the genre that has the largest percentage of the audience that cares about the production and the tones.

Yeah, but if everything else sounds good, it's gonna make the guitars sound alot better in context

 

[jval]

Watch the gain... you almost always need less than you think.

 

[ahjteam]

in the metal scene, almost everyone at least dabbles in playing guitar or another instrument.

Except we both know it's not true and air guitar doesn't count. or guitarhero.

 

[Omega_Void]

...air guitar doesn't count. or guitarhero.

For the purpose of revealing what the listeners care about, air guitar does count.

People don't air guitar to pop music even when a guitar is present, because the guitar is not the focus of the music for them.

Metalheads almost invariably do air guitar when they're into a track because in metal the guitar is the most prominent instrument. Fuck up the guitar tone and people will notice.

I hang out with lots of metal fans of a wide variety of ages who are not musicians, and don't even recognise words like "Ibanez" or "Mesa/Boogie" or "Peavey" (and why should they?). But they do care about guitar sounds, and will rave about a guitar tone they like, and gripe about a recording if they think the guitar tone sucks.

 

[Omega_Void]

My question, for those of you who do this for a living, is what are the immediate dos and don'ts for a good metal tone.

I'm not a professional sound engineer, but my years of experience in making music and on-the-side knob-twiddling have consistently confirmed that you can't predict what the result will sound like when you add two different sounds together.

Ergo to dial in a good guitar sound you must have the bass sound also present, and preferably drums too. Tweaking the bass and guitar tones together will get results in minutes which would take for-fucking-ever if you try to perfect them separately. YMMV, but I suspect not by much.

I also find when you get the bass and guitar sounding good together, they will sound more bland by comparison when solo. (I actually still use "n00b dialling" when I'm writing riffs, 'cos with my "full band" tones I don't get into it so much.)

Getting dialling tips from others is likely to be of limited usefulness. For one thing the tone has to suit your playing and your riffing style and your guitar. Plus likesay, the "right" guitar setting depend on the bass settings, and vice versa. You'll probably need less gain and more mids -- but you'd find that out for yourself in about six seconds when you dial in the bass and guitar together.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Honestly, it's just about listening to the stuff that's already out there that's fucking great and using that as a basis to develop your own guitar sound/s.

I've managed to cook up reasonable enough sounding stuff with amp sims and impulses, not because I'm some magical guy but because I just listened to a lot of amazing productions obsessively and just noted what tonal characteristics sounded good and also listened to some stuff that doesn't have good guitar tone (Metallica's Master of Puppets, And Justice for All, Cowboys from Hell................basically all that shit with the hyper mid scooped garbage) and noted what tonal characteristics I definitely would not want in my guitar tones.
Some people like the super mid scooped stuff, but it's not at all conducive to a big sounding, modern metal/heavy rock mix at all.

I then applied what I had learnt from using amp sims and impulses to the "real world" of real tube amps and a real cabinet.

 

[Harry Hughes]

Also, while I'm here, I'm not so sure I really agree on the "less gain is more" thing. I've noticed the whole "less gain" thing is REALLY prevalent around SS.org.
I used to buy into that........until I realized that palm mutes sound like tinny crap and leads just don't sustain to their full potential, and as such I feel like I'm in the minority in SS.org because I like so much gain
Sure, it's okay when you're doing 8 string "djent" but honestly, for modern death metal/deathcore, metalcore, fuck it, bring on the masses of sexy saturation that brings the huge sounding palm mutes and the sustaining, singing leads.
Whenever I use the Nick Crow 8505 amp sim, I turn the gain up to full, literally. And you know what? Sounds pretty fucking cool, even with quad tracked stuff.
The extra compression is also just handy for keeping the dynamics in check too.

 

[Ermz]

My question, for those of you who do this for a living, is what are the immediate dos and don'ts for a good metal tone. What settings should, generally, be avoided for instance, and what settings, again in general, work better for the guitar tone in a full band setting.

I may not be the type of 'pro' you're looking to hear from but...

Getting the mid relationship right is pivotal. Getting guitars to sit in a mix in a useful way is immensely difficult. They are very broadband instruments, and each range needs to be tailored in a useful way. Sometimes you'll get lucky and have all of this from the performer and/or amp tone. Most of the time you won't.

Above all, the ratios of various midrange bands are the most important. 300-600 needs to be controlled to reduce mud, but if overdone will make the guitars sound thin and weak. 600 to 1k needs to be prominent enough so you hear the note, but not so strong as to cloud the ambiance of the mix nor sound 'flat' or 'cardboard'. 1k to 2.5k needs to be controlled so they don't sound too 'pushed', yet if it's overdone, they will sound hollow. 2.5k to 4k needs to be controlled so that they don't get in the way of the vocal. Above this there is all sorts of fizz going around that is source-dependent and needs to be annihilated for the tone to have any chance.

The important thing is to not gauge its 'largeness' when solo'd. I've noticed a trend where many newer guys will overcompensate for poor mid-dispersion in a guitar tone by leaving many lows in it. This is the best way to make your mix suck. Other people with poor perspective will gauge the tone solo'd and say 'wow, that sounds so huge', yet it will sound anything but when put together with other instruments.

When solo'd, a guitar tone should sound relatively thin. This implies that you actually have the bass guitar doing something meaningful within your mix.

The very best and largest mixes almost always have the thinnest and most separated individual elements. It's just the way physics works, it's just the way our hearing works, and it's just the way frequency masking is.

On gain... there is no simple solution. Less isn't always more. More isn't always more. There is however a nice middle ground, a sweet spot that sings well for the material that's being played, and for the amps its being played through. Too little gain will lead to under-powered, hollow mixes, too much will lead to an unintelligible mess.

 

[Harry Hughes]

I really agree with Ermz on the upper frequency fizz thing (well, I agree with all of his post really).
Some people seem to like this really super aggressive, ultra piercing fizzy tone, and I can't understand the love for it AT ALL. It just sounds like shit to me and I hear this shit all the time in really amateur recordings on various forums, and unfortunately even on some "pro" stuff.
Guitar tones only need so much brightness and while it's at the expense of not sounding as immediately aggressive when you hit the play button, it just seems to work better for the mix AND also just makes for a less fatiguing listen.
Some albums I find hard to listen to just because the goddamn guitar tones are so obnoxiously bright and the fizz is just clouding up the range where the cymbals should be punching through anyway.
The CLA and Randy Staub stuff and also some Andy Wallace stuff (Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory comes to mind) are really great references for hearing some nicely controlled upper mid band stuff in the guitars and hell, just great sounding guitars in a mix in general.

 

[tgs]

I may not be the type of 'pro' you're looking to hear from but...

Getting the mid relationship right is pivotal. Getting guitars to sit in a mix in a useful way is immensely difficult. They are very broadband instruments, and each range needs to be tailored in a useful way. Sometimes you'll get lucky and have all of this from the performer and/or amp tone. Most of the time you won't.

Above all, the ratios of various midrange bands are the most important. 300-600 needs to be controlled to reduce mud, but if overdone will make the guitars sound thin and weak. 600 to 1k needs to be prominent enough so you hear the note, but not so strong as to cloud the ambiance of the mix nor sound 'flat' or 'cardboard'. 1k to 2.5k needs to be controlled so they don't sound too 'pushed', yet if it's overdone, they will sound hollow. 2.5k to 4k needs to be controlled so that they don't get in the way of the vocal. Above this there is all sorts of fizz going around that is source-dependent and needs to be annihilated for the tone to have any chance.

The important thing is to not gauge its 'largeness' when solo'd. I've noticed a trend where many newer guys will overcompensate for poor mid-dispersion in a guitar tone by leaving many lows in it. This is the best way to make your mix suck. Other people with poor perspective will gauge the tone solo'd and say 'wow, that sounds so huge', yet it will sound anything but when put together with other instruments.

When solo'd, a guitar tone should sound relatively thin. This implies that you actually have the bass guitar doing something meaningful within your mix.

The very best and largest mixes almost always have the thinnest and most separated individual elements. It's just the way physics works, it's just the way our hearing works, and it's just the way frequency masking is.

On gain... there is no simple solution. Less isn't always more. More isn't always more. There is however a nice middle ground, a sweet spot that sings well for the material that's being played, and for the amps its being played through. Too little gain will lead to under-powered, hollow mixes, too much will lead to an unintelligible mess.

VERY good post.

 

[Josh Burgess]

If you're using real amps and micing up, getting a good cab will make a huge difference. I and many other people on this forum praise the Mesa oversized 4x12 cab. So, so easy to get a good sound out of...

If you're using amp sims, you're going to have to spend more time filtering out different frequency ranges... It won't be so easy... try to use enough mids to cut through and still have some body to the tone, but you want to avoid excess mids to keep away from that nasally/cardboard kind of sound. Generally, use less bass and a little less gain for lower tuned guitars. Higher tunings can get away with more bass and more gain.

I don't really agree that the guitars should sound thin without the bass though... it totally depends on the type of music/mix, but I would usually rather have the guitars sounding good first and then work on a bass tone that compliments them (and usually mixed much lower). Obviously they have to fit together and compliment each other, but I think getting a great guitar tone first is the better way to go about it...

 

[soundsunderground]

use compression. helps keep those bass heavy palm mutes controlled.

 

[guitarguru777]

I can give some insight on this as I work in both venues Live and Studio....

My tones are completely different when it comes to being in the studio and playing live. I use the same setup in both arenas:
Ibanez > TS > 5150 > Marshall 4x12

The main differences when in a live situation vs studio:
More mids
More gain not a ton, but a little

I really work hard with the band do get a good live sound. What I tell every band is your only as good as the sound you have coming off the stage. Take your time to get your volume right between instruments. Make sure the guitar doesn't step on the bass and bass doesn't step on the kick. This is before everything gets mic'd up and put through the board. The biggest problem I find with live bands is guitar player using way too much low end, and scooping way too much mids. Live just like in the studio if you are micing the cabs, worry about what it sounds like at FOH not on stage in front of the amp.

Different rooms will sound different as well, so you need to adjust your tone accordingly. Venus with carpeted and "hollow" stages will tend to sound more "woofy" so back off on the low end all around (ie: bass and guitars). Stages with a hardwood floor that is fairly solid will carry more high end so adjust accordingly. Concrete walls reflect more overall sound and mid's get very washy along with the highs, so adjust accordingly.

Another trick I learned is sometimes the speakers you use in the studio don't cut it live. My Marshall with v30s just doesn't cut live, so I have 2 different sets of speakers. 2 x v30s for when I am in the studio and 2 x GT 65's for live. The GT65s give me a sound that cuts through the mix better they sit in the bottom of my cab basically at ear level of the audience so those in the front of the stage hear more mids as they will hear less of the PA since its shooting past them.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Robert W]

Guitarguru777,

You wouldn't by any chance happen to have any clips of those V30s A/B to the GT65s, do you?

 

[greyskull]

Get the sound in the room before you worry about anything else.

 

[Fragle]

great post ermz!

another point: don't try to make an amp sound like something it is not. for example, if you have a 5150 don't try to dial it so it resembles the sound of record xy which was recorded with a rectifier. i learned this the hard way. especially the 5150 basically has ITS sound with the raw midrange and whatnot, and it really doesn't like being tweaked and post processed to be a super scooped sizzly bottom heavy metal machine. you might be able to approximate it, but it just won't sound as good and natural as it does when tweaked in its comfort zone.
bottom line is, choose the right amp for the project.
obviously, this sucks if you only have one or two amps at hand, but it's the reason why top studios always have a large array of different stuff.

 

[muckypup1]

If you're using real amps and micing up, getting a good cab will make a huge difference. I and many other people on this forum praise the Mesa oversized 4x12 cab. So, so easy to get a good sound out of...

If you're using amp sims, you're going to have to spend more time filtering out different frequency ranges... It won't be so easy... try to use enough mids to cut through and still have some body to the tone, but you want to avoid excess mids to keep away from that nasally/cardboard kind of sound. Generally, use less bass and a little less gain for lower tuned guitars. Higher tunings can get away with more bass and more gain.

I don't really agree that the guitars should sound thin without the bass though... it totally depends on the type of music/mix, but I would usually rather have the guitars sounding good first and then work on a bass tone that compliments them (and usually mixed much lower). Obviously they have to fit together and compliment each other, but I think getting a great guitar tone first is the better way to go about it...

+1

With the latest nevermore album, when you listen to the solo guitar tracks of the Obsidian Conspiracy, they have quite a lot of bass, and when you listen to the solo drums/bass/vocal track for that song the bass is set pretty low, the guitars sound heavy without even having the bass there. so I like to get a heavy guitar sound and then get a bass sound but mixed pretty quiet.

 

[Harry Hughes]

I think some of you guys are misconstruing what Ermin's saying.
When he says "thin" he doesn't mean the stick figure equivalent of a guitar tone, but rather a guitar tone that is not so large that it begins to become overbearing on the mix.
Gojira's The Way of All Flesh would be a great example of a tone that has that balance of having enough meat but not being too thick, but whereas End Of Heartache is example of something that has quite meaty guitars in the lower mids, at the expense of the overall tightness and clarity of the mix.
I think for guitarists, it's hard to leg go of that ego of wanting a "good" guitar tone, and just be able to see how damaging it can actually be to the mix to have it sound good by itself, rather than have it sound fairly average by itself, but fucking slam in the full context of the mix.
I know as a guitarist myself, I had this problem, but the more I listened to truly slammin' productions by the greats of the mixing world, I realized it wasn't the way and that, like pretty much everything in a mix, you've gotta strike a balance, not too much and not too little.