Free will?

[Europa Ascendent]

No, you do not choose your genes, that's what your parents choose by procreating.

Ok, so right off the bat, a major factor determining your behavioral predispositions and personality matrix is off the table and beyond your control. Alright.

Of course, the idea that your parents 'choose' your genetic makeup is pretty fucking silly too, but we'll let that pass for now...

Now you said 'home' which is not the same as house.

Congratulations, I'm surprised the difference is apparent to someone as stupid as you obviously are.

Yes you can effect your 'home' because if you change how you interact with people in you home, they will also change in their responses to you.

And it looks like you've already argued yourself into a corner. If the actions of others are contingent upon your actions, then your actions, obviously would be contingent upon their actions, quite neatly circumventing pure 'free will.' Oops.

People you call your friends are only so because you chose to be friends wtih them.

Alternately, you may, in fact, 'choose' to be friends with people because genes (personality) and experience (shared interests, perhaps?) make them good candidates. And that's ignoring all the other contingent factors that have to align like meeing them in the first place and having your overtures of friendship reciprocated.

The obstacles to the unrestricted operation of 'free will' are mounting...

Social institutions are created by someone elses choices which affect you. But its not the institutions that really matter, but how the society make you feel and act.

The point is that you don't control these institutions or the way they impact your life (and thus, the way you feel about them).

at least you said it. It is because you don't have the choice from knowledge to change how others reality affect you. When someone tells you when your a kid that you can't do something, or you will never be able to do something, like play music, then you may BELIEVE them and therefore it will become true. If you don't, then your limitations as to how far you can go is only as far as your willing to persue it.

Because belief trumps reality. Which is why you can flap your arms and fly if you put your mind to it...

Doctors and scientist say things are impossible all the time, and when they see the contrary, they don't beleive it, even if they witness it with their own eyes.

Let me see if I've got your argument straight:

Sometimes scientists are wrong, therefore, we should ignore evidence that suggests 'free will' is heavily circumscribed by contingent factors beyond our control.

Yeah, real logical, buddy.

Many times people who take placebo's get better

The placebo effect is minimal, as anyone who has actually studied these things already knows.

many times doctors say that a terminal patient is going to die within the week.

And guess what? Most of the time they do.

People who are sure they will get better, and believe they are getting better, will more then likely get better, as long as the conviction is there.

Evidence? It's not that I don't trust random people on the internet, it's just that I think you're a fucking moron.

There are people in this world that can do things you would more then likely deep impossible

Apparently, the English language is impossible from your perspective. Christ, if you can't communicate in the language, find a forum based out of whatever Frog-speaking shithole you hail from and stop wasting our time with Engrish babble.

but if it was, then why can they do them? Because no one told them they couldn't.

I've seen no evidence that anyone can do things that violate the laws of the universe as we understand them. Perhaps you ought to peddle your paranormoal spoonbending bullshit among people that aren't too smart to fall for it?

Some things are beyond our sphere of influence. Life and death will always be, and the weather is a system responses.

Yeah, and so are a lot of the other things that construct our experience and impinge on our behavior.

First, you use the discription of fragments to give the topic of experience lesser vaule by insinuating that it is very small.

No, I'm using 'fragments' to differentiate between those elements of experience which could be conceivably said to be under our conscious control and experience as a whole, much of which is not under our conscious control.

Reinforceing that contorl is fleeting and insignificant brings one to think that once again it is small and out of reach. For you, it may be. Then you say the opposite is both arrogant and stupid, to justify to yourself that you are both correct in your beliefs and you are not being arrogent by asserting that your beliefs are true for everyone. You then seal it off by saying people that don't limit themselves, or have control of their life are insane.

Yeah, if you claim to have control over things which YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY CONTROL, it is both arrogant and insane. Thanks for playing, Kermit.

 

[DE]

Silver Incubus is wrong in this thread solely because of the SEVEN HUNDRED KILOBYTE animated GIF in his signature.

 

[no country for old wainds]

and his diabolical arguments i guess

 

[DE]

well yeah that too

 

[MURAI]

He's Canadian.

 

[no country for old wainds]

maybe he is a goat after all

 

[Silver Incubus]

WOW, what colourful responses from such educated people. And here I am offering choice.

I control my reality. and at the moment, you are doing exactly what I expected.

If you think I am insane, well isnt' that a choice?

The funniest thing is that no matter how much you try to prove me wrong you never will because you cannot prove anything outside your own experience.

But of course, your conscious mind cannot be changed so easily, I'd first have to create repore with you before you may listen to me, I'd have to first want to do that, which i don't think is worth my time with people in boxes.

I want to know how you can know everything you say is true? Or is it simply you don't really know, but believe these things that other people have shown to you, or told you, or even convinced you to be the truth.

The only person you are fooling is yourself.

You can believe you that robot if you want, but i don't think anyone else will agree with you. Cheers.

 

[MURAI]

Eh?

 

[Europa Ascendent]

The funniest thing is that no matter how much you try to prove me wrong you never will because you cannot prove anything outside your own experience.

I'll take that as an admission of defeat.

Your sword, sir?

 

[no country for old wainds]

I control my reality. and at the moment, you are doing exactly what I expected.

Debunking your shitty arguments? You're quite the pessimist aren't you. Maybe if you believed we'd talk to you nicely we would do.

If you think I am insane, well isnt' that a choice?

Actually, it results from your viewpoints being inconceivably incompatible with my (brilliant) sense of logic.

The funniest thing is that no matter how much you try to prove me wrong you never will because you cannot prove anything outside your own experience.

No, the funniest thing is that you've given up because you're on to a loser.

which i don't think is worth my time with people in boxes.

That's good coming from someone who was attacking EA for arrogance a few minutes ago.

The only person you are fooling is yourself.

Wog calling the sun black.

 

[Justin S.]

This threads even worse than deep thoughts...

 

[no country for old wainds]

i like you justin s

make some good threads

 

[Opethian666]

I have recently changed my mind on what I thought. There are many unexplainable things that happen in this universe that science has yet to give reasons for, or testable theories.

Obviously, that's what's called progress.

The will of a person can defy logical science, as many terminal people have been cured by the will to be better.

There's a big difference between will and free will. This does not defy logical science at all, since a "will to be better" means a state of mind (=the brain giving certain impulses to hormone-secreting organs), these different hormones causing a reaction in the body, which will have an effect on the chances of the person overcoming the illness.

It may be very unlikely that someones consciousness will affect your reality,

No, it is very likely that someone's consciousness will affect his reality, but consciousness is just an intermediate of a determined physical process. Consciousness is the result of advanced information centralisation.

but you can have complete control over your reality, and therefore gives that person the choice of how to be and act according to the outside stimulous.

No, because your body can only make one set "choice" under the same circumstances of the environment and the same structure of that body. Your "conscious choice" is just the central control of your body (=brain) weighing off all kinds of information it is receiving under the form of interacting molecules and electrical impulses, and sending out the result of this process.

To think that your biology affects your decision to drink coke or pepsi, then you may have put your mind in a box that restricts your possiblities to experience.

Not at all.

 

[Silver Incubus]

I find it strange that no matter what i say, people are mis quoting me all over the place.

I have found a few response in this thread that even pertain to what I am talking about, everything else is fasle assumptions as to what I am actually talking about.

People think they are proving me wrong, but they aren't even talking about the same things that I am so they are arguing with their false interpretation.

I just don't understand how so many people read what I say, and do not understand what I say.

 

[no country for old wainds]

You just suck at that whole communication thing I guess.

 

[Horus]

I find it strange that no matter what i say, people are mis quoting me all over the place.

I have found a few response in this thread that even pertain to what I am talking about, everything else is fasle assumptions as to what I am actually talking about.

People think they are proving me wrong, but they aren't even talking about the same things that I am so they are arguing with their false interpretation.

I just don't understand how so many people read what I say, and do not understand what I say.

You're not alone. Just look at what everybody does with the Bible.

 

[Silver Incubus]

You have a very loose definition of the word "choose"...

You haven't supplied a definition of what it is to you.

Strawman and you know it.

NO you need to be specific in your words.

Strawman. Who mentioned friends? You don't choose which people you meet. You don't control who crosses your path.

If you don't control who crosses your path, then remove yourself from society and live in a mountain in seclution. then send me a postcard telling me that you don't choose who you cross pathes with.
Did you not think that maybe if you never talked to anyone that maybe you would never have had any friends?

And this is precisely the point! There are external factors which shape everybody, all the time, and have a direct effect upon how one "chooses", rendering the idea of truly free choice invalid. "Free" choice implies choice powered by nothing but yourself, but the causes of every single one of your "choices" are factors outside your control.

You imply that free chioce implies one thing or the other. I see free will to be choices you consciously have. I never said once that environment and genes don't affect choice, you assumed I meant that.

My dad told me I would never be a goat when I was 6. The bastard. But anyway, last I checked nobody was even talking about whether or not it's perilous to believe free will doesn't exist (although I'd argue it isn't), we're arguing over whether or not it exists.

Well if you read this paragraph closesly, it's you who sounds stupid. I never said anything about goats, you freak.

Keeping throwing about arguments like "it would be bad to believe this so it's clearly false" and nobody's going to take you seriously. That is presumably your argument, unless you're saying "anything is possible" which is even more insane.

Let us just make things up to show that my point is correct. Why don't you just go out and say "Assuming that you say this, then my response will be that, because my answer is correct"
Why don't you try putting words in your own mouth before putting them in mine.

You're saying people are sometimes wrong about what's impossible, you're not making an argument against things being impossible. Me wishing I was a 19 foot robot living on planet Flobble with Gina G isn't going to make it any more likely (unfortunately).

First of all, wishing never accomplishes anything. You'd be suprised how many people in mental care think they are jesus. I'm sure if you wanted to you could beleive you are a 19 foot robot, but then again, no one else would perceive it that way because of many factors.

Absolutely, but that applies to everything. You choose to make friends with somebody. Why? Because you desire their friendship. Why? Because, as a result of your genetics and environmental experience friendship with that particular person appeals to you. You're making a choice inasmuch as you're consciously making a decision which has the illusion of freedom, but even the making of that decision is pre-determined by factors ultimately beyond your control.

Once again, I never said there aren't motivations for doing things. I am actually saying that there is no limit to what you can achieve personally.That you can change how you act and feel, which will change the reality you have with other people. Like smiling at people instread of sneering at people. Holy shit, they smile back? OH no, I didn't choose to smile at them, shit that was my genes and environment right? Wrong.

I envy you and your goat shape-shifting capabilities.

Yes because I was the one who wanted to be a goat. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

 

[Cythraul]

Me wishing I was a 19 foot robot living on planet Flobble with Gina G isn't going to make it any more likely (unfortunately).

 

[Cythraul]

@ silver incubus' posts. This thread is killing me.

 

[no country for old wainds]

You haven't supplied a definition of what it is to you.

Come on man, however diverse our respective definitions of choice are, you can't possibly believe that parents "choose" the genes of their offspring.

If you don't control who crosses your path, then remove yourself from society and live in a mountain in seclution. then send me a postcard telling me that you don't choose who you cross pathes with.

You're reaching for obscure specifics to prove what you're presenting as a general rule. Even if you control where you go, you don't control where other people go, and you don't know where every person is going to be at every point in time either, thus you aren't in control of who you cross paths with. This is irrelevant anyway though, the only reason you go anywhere is because you're pursuing some end, and what ends you pursue depends on how you've been shaped by a combination of genetics and environmental experience.

You imply that free chioce implies one thing or the other. I see free will to be choices you consciously have. I never said once that environment and genes don't affect choice, you assumed I meant that.

It's not just that they affect choice, it's that they're the sole cause of your choices, and thus there's nothing free about them because actually, your choices are outside your control. The illusion that you're in control of your decisions is, well, an illusion.

Well if you read this paragraph closesly, it's you who sounds stupid. I never said anything about goats, you freak.

You're missing the point. You keep making arguments about how things are only made impossible because people convince others to be closed-minded. In reality, many things are impossible regardless of what people tell them, like being a goat when you're not a goat.

Let us just make things up to show that my point is correct. Why don't you just go out and say "Assuming that you say this, then my response will be that, because my answer is correct"
Why don't you try putting words in your own mouth before putting them in mine.

Spell out your point for me, then, as I clearly haven't understood it.

First of all, wishing never accomplishes anything. You'd be suprised how many people in mental care think they are jesus. I'm sure if you wanted to you could beleive you are a 19 foot robot, but then again, no one else would perceive it that way because of many factors.

Yes, and Jimmy Joe the village idiot will never be a philosopher either. It's called reality. What were you trying to argue, if not that anything's possible if somebody believes it enough? I'm not even sure how this is related to the topic, actually.

I am actually saying that there is no limit to what you can achieve personally.

I can achieve being a 19 foot robot living on planet Flobble with Gina G then - or not, because you're wrong.

OH no, I didn't choose to smile at them, shit that was my genes and environment right? Wrong. [/I]

Except it's not wrong. The decision to smile at somebody was purely and simply a product of how you've been shaped by genetics and environmental experience, you had no control over the choice, only an illusion of control, which is just about the opposite of "free will" as it's commonly defined.

Yes because I was the one who wanted to be a goat. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

Calm down, goat man.