Freedom of Speech dies in Europe as the Zionist machine gains greater control.

[Schurl]

Israel will be our only friends in the war with Iran and the rest of the middle east.

IMO the only friend that Israel cares about is Israel - as I remember, there were at least two cases in recent years when Israeli spies were caught in the United States, Israel´s closest ally. What differentiates Jews from Muslims and makes them less "dangerous" is their small quantity.

To Jurched: I am Austrian and I believe that Irving was jailed for something he said back in 1989 during a visit in Austria - as he came back now somebody informed the police and he was caught. Personally I find the sentence out of proportion, according to Austrian law three years is also the maximum sentence for someone who tortures children and Irving didn´t say "Open the concentration camps again" or anything like that. It seems that in Austria (or Germany or most other European countries) fighting nazis, fascists or at least people labelled that way is the only relief from the common tolerance and liberalism around here.

 

[TheAssMaster]

And what's wrong with eye-witnesses? I'll be sure to tell my grandmother who had to hide in the mountains from Nazis that, no one came to her village and excuted people and dumped them in mass graves because you read a book

And Trust me, I've read more about WWII then you will ever have, and I can say people like Irving are so far on the fringe that no one takes him seriously...

And there we have it, the overwhelming tendency to make sweeping statements towards anyone who dares stick his head above the parapet and juuuuuuust question some (not all) of the facts! I don't recall ever saying anything like that statement, I'm afraid. This is a good illustration of the way historical revisionists (not just Holocaust revisionists) are drowned in hysteria.

When on jury duty, I listen to both sides of the argument, and there will be points from both sides which I will find compelling. Possibly, one will be convincing and I will make my decision. With this subject in particular, ie. Holocaust denial, there isn't one side that will win, because the argument isn't simply one of "It happened/it didn't happen". Most sane Revisionists won't say "Duh, it didn't happen", many are simply saying "It didn't happen quite how we have been TOLD to believe for the past 60 years".
Of course, no distinction is made between the degrees of difference of opinion, nor between those who are objecting to the official line because they worship Adolf, and those who have no political/racial/religious agenda, and simply don't accept the cut and dried version. (Decide for yourself where David Irving sits)
Everyone who dares to question is lumped into the same category of "poisonous anti-Semitic Nazi sympathiser", and that, for me, is wrong.

If anything, the denouncement of any dissenting voices drives people to believe the more extreme conspiracy theorists. They may think that if there's nothing in the revisionist claims, why are people so uptight about it? It is better to calmly and firmly rubbish their counterclaims with EVIDENCE, rather than hysteria. If the evidence is concrete, it will surely withstand any attempts to disprove it. Whenever the Government/Establishment tells me ANYTHING is unquestionable fact, that immediately makes me suspicious. When dissenters are thrown in jail, rather than being be-littled, alarm bells go off for me. When David Icke (a British ex-TV presenter) claimed the Queen was a rodent eating reptile from outer space, we all took the piss out of him, and still do. Whatever that man says now, no-one will ever listen to without mirth, even if he really does discover a race of aliens rules our world! Had he been jailed, however, I would give his claims far more credence, scarily enough!!!

Obviously, this subject is a very emotive issue, and many many people have close personal ties to events back then, and it is still within living memory. Wounds are easily re-opened, so we will never get a reasoned debate just yet. In 150 years, perhaps the subject will be discussed sensibly, and both sides of the argument will be aired in a civilised fashion. Remember, very very few, if any things that are accepted as fact soon after the event, are actually so. There are plenty of things which we look back on in history which wouldn't have been questioned at the time. Once upon a time, to question the "fact" that the world was flat would have got you into serious trouble, possibly killed.

Finally, at the risk of starting a "I've read more books than you, ner ner" type of argument (I think we're all too old for that), well, no, you haven't!! If there is one subject I can confidently and more importantly, learnedly comment on, it is the military campaigns and some of the associated social impact thereof, in Europe/North Africa of WW2.
This stems in many ways from the personal experience of family members who were on both sides during the War - ranging from RAF bomber crew, Dunkirk veterans, others involved with the assault on Monte Cassino, through to Panzer crew and Waffen SS recruits captured in Normandy 1944. Alas, many interesting conversations were interrupted by a slap round the head from over-sensitive parents not wanting to stir up bad memories, despite them all being keen to relate their experiences. This sparked many years of intense interest and pursuit of knowledge (I hesitate to use the word "research", I'm not going to claim I'm a scholar)
Alas, now that I know enough to comment/question them on their experience, many are dead. If only I had been 10 years older.........!

Right, enough of this serious crap, I'm going to find a thread to post something about anal sex!

 

[ZeeZooZum]

I don't recall ever saying anything like that statement, I'm afraid. [/SIZE]]

You didn't say the following??:

"Read the evidence, for and against, the gas chamber debate, not the anecdotes of alleged witnesses, then make your own mind up."

 

[TheAssMaster]

So just clear this up a mo, was your Grandmother a witness or was she hiding in the fucking mountains?????

You have illustrated my point admirably, who would want to pull up your dear old granny and thrash out the actual truth of what she actually saw with her own two eyes? Probably not me. I would just take it as fact that she was telling the truth, and had survived an arduous existence during the war. It is far less traumatic and awkward that way. Don't open old wounds, accept what you are told. That's natural.

But if you were in court charged with a crime, and an alleged "witness" was hiding in the mountains, or even in their own village prior to the crime, rather than at the actual place the crime was supposed to have taken place, would you accept their evidence? Of course not! Her evidence may be circumstantial, but not conclusive eyewitness statement. Big difference.

 

[ZeeZooZum]

So just clear this up a mo, was your Grandmother a witness or was she hiding in the fucking mountains?????

1) Well, first she fled then hid

You have illustrated my point admirably, who would want to pull up your dear old granny and thrash out the actual truth of what she actually saw with her own two eyes? Probably not me. I would just take it as fact that she was telling the truth, and had survived an arduous existence during the war. It is far less traumatic and awkward that way. Don't open old wounds, accept what you are told. That's natural.

2) No, I've proved the opposite, unless you always intend to mean the opposite of what you imply.

But if you were in court charged with a crime, and an alleged "witness" was hiding in the mountains, or even in their own village prior to the crime, rather than at the actual place the crime was supposed to have taken place, would you accept their evidence? Of course not! Her evidence may be circumstantial, but not conclusive eyewitness statement. Big difference.

[I] 3) Thanks Perry Mason but in combination with other eyewitnesses and the fact that suddenly most of the men in the village disappeared and mass graves were found it constitutes a fairly good historical record to everyone but revionists and arm-chair historians like yourself[/I]

 

[Vinnie Cappuccino]

I support any investigation into questionable historical "Facts", the holocost has been proven time and again, it did happen. I think more investigation needs to go into the controlled demolition of the world trade buildings, that shit freaks me out every time I see it!

 

[DeathsHead]

I support any investigation into questionable historical "Facts", the holocost has been proven time and again, it did happen. I think more investigation needs to go into the controlled demolition of the world trade buildings, that shit freaks me out every time I see it!

Theres no doubt that it happened, but I do believe that the numbers were inflated atad--the 6 million mark came from the Soviet war crimes nurnburg team. And it wasnt just jews that suffered(although they are the most vocal)--slavs, poles, etc

I agree that there are things about the WTC bombings that need to be explored--like the eye witness account of the israeli "agents" jumping up and down applauding when the plan hit. Theres prob a hell of alot that were are not told and will not be told

 

[fabian_from_hell]

.

 

[fabian_from_hell]

the point is, those people simply can´t take the truth. the cartoons didn´t show anything that´s not true. and i´d feel shame beeing european if someone ever apologies to any of those monkeys.

what is more evil - drawing a cartoon, or flying a plane into a building?
my opinion is, the whole protest and that shit is probably the dumbest thing since the law against denying the holocaust.

that law proves freedom of speech is a lie and the world is full of hypocrites. everywhere they´re telling you "you can say whatever you want" and then they bust your ass for just saying or drawing your opinion. sick.

freedom of speech: a german musician was sentenced for selling t-shirts that say "marijuana im- and export". they said he told people to do illegal stuff.

ps: i don´t know exactly, but i guess the cartoon was meant to be a joke and not to provoke.............civilisation??? no.

 

[Decibiel]

the truth